Pricing dilemma

[Norcalbaker59]

I think I will give Christines a go! I assumed it wouldn’t work so well with icing and glaze As it is incredibly light and fluffy but I will give it a go.


I really wish you would tell me what’s wrong with the other recipe , not knowing is killing me and I can’t figure it out myself! I have much more research to do first lol

I can tell you what is wrong, but you won’t learn anything from that. To learn what’s wrong take each recipe. List the ingredients side by side. Then compare them.

Baker’s percentages is the ratio of all ingredients based on the weight of the flour. Flour is ALWAYS 100% (same as 1.00). To figure out the baker’s percentages, divide the weight of the ingredient into the weight of the flour. Weigh the egg out of the shell. So for example, Christine’s recipe calls for 90 ml water. The flour is 454 g.

90 / 454 = 0.198. the 8 on end means you can round up to 20 if you like work with whole numbers. 20% (same as 0.20)

Christine baker‘s % Michael baker’s %

flour 100% 100%
water 20%
buttermilk/milk
yeast
egg
butter
sugar
salt

 

[Norcalbaker59]

BTW, if you make the adjustments necessary to get Michael’s doughnut recipe to be light and airy with the white line, you will adjust the ratios to be like Christine recipe. Trust me my friend, we all started where you are now.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Oh I totally agree!!! These doughnuts were made for a family member so it’s fine. I wouldn’t have been is lax if it were for a customer.

You made a key point which was that the yeast ‘dissolved’ in the liquid which is why the final dough was dryer than normal I assume.

When using dry yeast, do I have to activate it first? If so, do I use liquid from the recipe or a separate portion of liquid?

Whatever the total liquid is called for in the recipe, then you use part of that to dissolve the yeast if you are going to dissolve yeast. Yeast does not have to be dissolved, though fresh yeast is better dispersed in dough when it is dissolved.


It’s a misconception that dry yeast is “activated” before use. Dissolving in liquid is to check if its dead in case the yeast has been sitting for like two years in their pantry. They don’t do it in commercial baking because they plow through the yeast supply, and who has time for that when you have a dozen doughs and batters to mix. I only dissolve it rarely. It’s a personal perference thing. I dissolve it when I came poolish and preferments, when I make certain doughs.

 

[LamsMekk]

Ok so I finally understand the bakers percentages!! Very simple now I see.

I’m definitely going to stick to christines recipe, I just hope that they’re not too light and fluffy to hold the glaze!

I’ll keep you updated with pics tomorrow

I also need to retry cinnamon buns but for now I will focus on doughnuts as the fox who chases two hairs catches none!

If I get the chance I will compare the numbers from both recipes so that I can figure out what the issue is with Michaels.

Is it ok for me to use that same flour for Christines recipe?

I’ll let you know how it all turns out!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ok so I finally understand the bakers percentages!! Very simple now I see.

I’m definitely going to stick to christines recipe, I just hope that they’re not too light and fluffy to hold the glaze!

I’ll keep you updated with pics tomorrow

I also need to retry cinnamon buns but for now I will focus on doughnuts as the fox who chases two hairs catches none!

If I get the chance I will compare the numbers from both recipes so that I can figure out what the issue is with Michaels.

Is it ok for me to use that same flour for Christines recipe?

I’ll let you know how it all turns out!

Professional bakers don’t use recipes, they use baker’s percentages. Its the only way to keep your product consist batch to batch, and the only way to scale up and down and yet the product quality consistent. And that’s because baker’s percentages scales everything to the flour.

So it doesn’t matter if you mix a batch of dough to make 2 dozen doughnuts or 15 dozen doughnuts, the ratios will be exactly the same.

And the best part, is you can scale to order or scale as business demand changes during the week.

When you get the chance, look at the differences in percentages of the ingredients to flour between the two recipes. Does one recipe stand out for having greater/less percentage of a ingredient to flour? If so, what is that ingredient and how does it effect the quality of the dough? That is your lead.

 

[LamsMekk]

Thanks!

Shall I use the same flour or standard all purpose flour?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks!

Shall I use the same flour or standard all purpose flour?

For batches you are providing to others for sale or marketing purposes, use the same flour.

For product development, make a batch of each and compare side by side.

It’s important to keep a baking binder and notebook. The binder holds all your formulas; the notebook tracks the formulas you test with notes. That way you know what you did with each batch and can make decisions about adjustments to make the dough what you want.

Remember, when you change anything, especially flour, expect changes to dough. And if flour, expect to adjust hydration up/down because absorption rates change with flour wheat variety, milling process, etc. Every brand is different. Just because it says all purpose flour doesn’t mean every brand of all purpose flour performs the same. Protein and ash content is determined by wheat variety. How bucky a dough is determined by the genetic proteins just as much as how a dough mixed, fermented and proofed.

 

[LamsMekk]

For batches you are providing to others for sale or marketing purposes, use the same flour.

For product development, make a batch of each and compare side by side.

It’s important to keep a baking binder and notebook. The binder holds all your formulas; the notebook tracks the formulas you test with notes. That way you know what you did with each batch and can make decisions about adjustments to make the dough what you want.

Remember, when you change anything, especially flour, expect changes to dough. And if flour, expect to adjust hydration up/down because absorption rates change with flour wheat variety, milling process, etc. Every brand is different. Just because it says all purpose flour doesn’t mean every brand of all purpose flour performs the same. Protein and ash content is determined by wheat variety. How bucky a dough is determined by the genetic proteins just as much as how a dough mixed, fermented and proofed.

I did give the standard popular brand of all purpose flour a go And the results wer disappointing. I mean, the doughnuts were nice, but I’m EXTREMELY critical of myself and I would most definitely say that the doughnut was much more dense, sort ‘dense’ if that makes sense. I’m not used of the American term for a yum yum but if you’ve had one then that’s the best description I can give in terms of taste.

The dough was very very nice and soft though before proofing so as far as I’m aware there was no over kneading, it did tighten up but I only kneaded for 8 minutes so when I started to feel tension in the dough I stopped.

I did get a better rise today which was good

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I did give the standard popular brand of all purpose flour a go And the results wer disappointing. I mean, the doughnuts were nice, but I’m EXTREMELY critical of myself and I would most definitely say that the doughnut was much more dense, sort ‘dense’ if that makes sense. I’m not used of the American term for a yum yum but if you’ve had one then that’s the best description I can give in terms of taste.

The dough was very very nice and soft though before proofing so as far as I’m aware there was no over kneading, it did tighten up but I only kneaded for 8 minutes so when I started to feel tension in the dough I stopped.

I did get a better rise today which was good

Yes when you use a different flour you will have a different result. We talk all the time about the protein and the ash, but there is another molecule that affects the gluten development: thiol groups.


No one ever talks about the thiols groups because it’s some complex food chemistry that requires a chemistry degree to comprehend. Plus thiols vary significantly by wheat variety, and cannot be easily tested for the way protein and ash is tested in flour.

Thiols are organosulfur compounds that are produced when the wheat is milled. When flour oxidizes, the thiols degrade and are destroyed. All flour will oxidize as it ages.

Oxidation to some degree enhances flour performance. That’s why some mills bleach flour, they are speeding up oxidation. In the US brands such as Gold Metal and Pillsbury all purpose flour are bleached.

The amount of bleaching and the variety of wheat is used in combination to create certain types of flour. When they choose variety its about the protein, ash and thiols. An example of how amount of bleaching and variety of wheat is used to create a flour is cake flour. A soft white variety of wheat which will have low protein, low ash and genetically produce a certain level of thiols is selected. And then it is bleached at a higher rate then all purpose flour.

Two terms you should know about dough: Extensibility and Elasticity.

Extensibility: ability of dough to stretch without tearing when force is applied

Elasticity: ability of dough to regain its shape force is removed.


These properties in dough are determined by the gluten development. And the gluten development is determined by the proteins gliadin & glutenin, and the thiols.


The domestic wheat in the UK is naturally too low in protein and thiols to make good bread. They’ve imported wheat varieties to cultivate for bread. But they’ve also tested domestic varieties extensively for thiol levels, looking for varieties that will be best suited for some breads.




Read this

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/dough-handling-properties/

This will give you an idea of how complicated food chemistry is and why we don’t talk about thiols. This is even above my pay grade. But I do scan/read papers like this because I need/want to have a better understanding of food science.

Thiols in flour and breadmaking quality

A differential pulse polarograph was used to measure accessible thiols in wheat flour suspensions at pH 4·2 with phenyl mercuric acetate as the reagen…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[LamsMekk]

Yes when you use a different flour you will have a different result. We talk all the time about the protein and the ash, but there is another molecule that affects the gluten development: thiol groups.


No one ever talks about the thiols groups because it’s some complex food chemistry that requires a chemistry degree to comprehend. Plus thiols vary significantly by wheat variety, and cannot be easily tested for the way protein and ash is tested in flour.

Thiols are organosulfur compounds that are produced when the wheat is milled. When flour oxidizes, the thiols degrade and are destroyed. All flour will oxidize as it ages.

Oxidation to some degree enhances flour performance. That’s why some mills bleach flour, they are speeding up oxidation. In the US brands such as Gold Metal and Pillsbury all purpose flour are bleached.

The amount of bleaching and the variety of wheat is used in combination to create certain types of flour. When they choose variety its about the protein, ash and thiols. An example of how amount of bleaching and variety of wheat is used to create a flour is cake flour. A soft white variety of wheat which will have low protein, low ash and genetically produce a certain level of thiols is selected. And then it is bleached at a higher rate then all purpose flour.

Two terms you should know about dough: Extensibility and Elasticity.

Extensibility: ability of dough to stretch without tearing when force is applied

Elasticity: ability of dough to regain its shape force is removed.


These properties in dough are determined by the gluten development. And the gluten development is determined by the proteins gliadin & glutenin, and the thiols.


The domestic wheat in the UK is naturally too low in protein and thiols to make good bread. They’ve imported wheat varieties to cultivate for bread. But they’ve also tested domestic varieties extensively for thiol levels, looking for varieties that will be best suited for some breads.




Read this

https://bakerpedia.com/processes/dough-handling-properties/

This will give you an idea of how complicated food chemistry is and why we don’t talk about thiols. This is even above my pay grade. But I do scan/read papers like this because I need/want to have a better understanding of food science.

Thiols in flour and breadmaking quality

A differential pulse polarograph was used to measure accessible thiols in wheat flour suspensions at pH 4·2 with phenyl mercuric acetate as the reagen…

www.sciencedirect.com

Wow this really is way more complex than people make out!

You taught me that bakers percentages are BASED on flour which reinforces the importance of the flour in a recipe. So understanding each types of flour and what result they produce and what their strengths and weaknesses are for each recipe is really important but much more complicated than one would expect!

I found this new flour today in the super market which has a lower protein content then the standard all purpose flour. It’s pricey, but I did pick up a packet with you in mind so that I could show you and maybe get some insight into what it might be good for making.

I still need to do my research into this stuff. Like I’m unclear on what is best for doughnuts, a flour with a higher or lower Protein content.

You’ve really opened my eyes to the complexity of baking and this really isn’t anything I ever would have come to learn from the internet.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Wow this really is way more complex than people make out!

You taught me that bakers percentages are BASED on flour which reinforces the importance of the flour in a recipe. So understanding each types of flour and what result they produce and what their strengths and weaknesses are for each recipe is really important but much more complicated than one would expect!

I found this new flour today in the super market which has a lower protein content then the standard all purpose flour. It’s pricey, but I did pick up a packet with you in mind so that I could show you and maybe get some insight into what it might be good for making.

I still need to do my research into this stuff. Like I’m unclear on what is best for doughnuts, a flour with a higher or lower Protein content.

You’ve really opened my eyes to the complexity of baking and this really isn’t anything I ever would have come to learn from the internet.

These are general guidelines. There’s always going to be exceptions to the rule. Personal taste and preferences come into play when bakers formulate a recipe.

8% Low protein flour is for most cakes. This produces a soft delicate crumb. Some cakes, like a fruitcake, hummingbird cake, or a chocolate cake with cocoa powder and melt chocolate needs a stronger flour because of the add-ins and heavy brown sugar. So a flour up to 10% - 10.5% protein.

Doughnuts and most pastry are best with a flour of 9% - 10.5% protein.

Most drop cookies 10% - 11.5% protein

Shortbread, sugar cookies, and delicate cookies, 9% - 10% protein

Rolls, enriched doughs, baguettes 10.5% - 11.5% protein

Bread 13% - 14% protein. But bread is very complex because a variety of flours are often used, so that changes the protein content when bakers blend flours.

Yes, baking is complex. Baking is a chemical reaction of all the ingredients to time and temperature.

Temperature must be thought of as an ingredient; it is added in different ways at different times. DDT is all about adding/subtracting temperature to get a finished dough temperature of XX°F (XX°C). Proofing is adding temperature. Refrigerating is adding the temperature. Mixing causes friction, which causes heat—which is adding temperature.

All ingredients are measured in weight against the flour.

An ingredient may be in an amount more than the weight of the flour, but it still must be weighed against the flour. Example, in chocolate chip cookie recipe, the sugars are usually 105% - 110% the weight of the flour.

While these details may seem tedious to the home baker, they make or break the professional. Your customers expect your bread, donuts, cakes, cookies, cinnamon rolls, and tarts to taste and look the same every day, every week, every month—year after year. And the only way to ensure the consistency of your product, is strict adherence to the tedious details of baking science.

 

[LamsMekk]

These are general guidelines. There’s always going to be exceptions to the rule. Personal taste and preferences come into play when bakers formulate a recipe.

8% Low protein flour is for most cakes. This produces a soft delicate crumb. Some cakes, like a fruitcake, hummingbird cake, or a chocolate cake with cocoa powder and melt chocolate needs a stronger flour because of the add-ins and heavy brown sugar. So a flour up to 10% - 10.5% protein.

Doughnuts and most pastry are best with a flour of 9% - 10.5% protein.

Most drop cookies 10% - 11.5% protein

Shortbread, sugar cookies, and delicate cookies, 9% - 10% protein

Rolls, enriched doughs, baguettes 10.5% - 11.5% protein

Bread 13% - 14% protein. But bread is very complex because a variety of flours are often used, so that changes the protein content when bakers blend flours.

Yes, baking is complex. Baking is a chemical reaction of all the ingredients to time and temperature.

Temperature must be thought of as an ingredient; it is added in different ways at different times. DDT is all about adding/subtracting temperature to get a finished dough temperature of XX°F (XX°C). Proofing is adding temperature. Refrigerating is adding the temperature. Mixing causes friction, which causes heat—which is adding temperature.

All ingredients are measured in weight against the flour.

An ingredient may be in an amount more than the weight of the flour, but it still must be weighed against the flour. Example, in chocolate chip cookie recipe, the sugars are usually 105% - 110% the weight of the flour.

While these details may seem tedious to the home baker, they make or break the professional. Your customers expect your bread, donuts, cakes, cookies, cinnamon rolls, and tarts to taste and look the same every day, every week, every month—year after year. And the only way to ensure the consistency of your product, is strict adherence to the tedious details of baking science.

This is very very helpful and exactly what I needed thank you.

I’m just trying to figure out what I’m going to do with my 7% protein flour.. perhaps a vanilla, lemon or orange cake as there aren’t any added extras that would need a higher protein dough like a chocolate cake.

Does this low protein flour mean that I can now bake a vanilla cake using a cake flour recipe? If so, I’m excited!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

This is very very helpful and exactly what I needed thank you.

I’m just trying to figure out what I’m going to do with my 7% protein flour.. perhaps a vanilla, lemon or orange cake as there aren’t any added extras that would need a higher protein dough like a chocolate cake.

Does this low protein flour mean that I can now bake a vanilla cake using a cake flour recipe? If so, I’m excited!

The low protein flour should make a nice cake. You won’t get the same quality as a cake flour because remember what I mentioned about thiols. But it should make a nice cake.

Tips on cake:

cream butter and sugar at 60°F-65°F (18°C) Checking the temperature of your butter is very important. The finished temperature of your cake batter should not be more than 68°F.

Use a light metal uncoated pan. Dark metal, and anodized aluminum pans conduct heat much more intensely. If you use these types of pans they will over bake your cake and make it dry and tough. Reduce the baking temperature by 25°F open parentheses 10°C)

if the recipe states 350°F (170°C) do not bake at this temperature. Bake at 325°F (160°C. I bake all my cakes at 325° with a very rare exception. 350°F is too hot for cake.

Use cloth baking strips to insulate the pan from excessive heat. You can make your own. But if you bake a lot of cake it’s probably more cost effective to purchase some.

Correct way to cream butter and sugar. This demonstrates cream and butter for cookies but it applies for all creaming of butter and sugar. The exception is when you cream butter and sugar for shortbread. For shortbread you do need the butter to be pliable. Note a cold egg is used

Cookie Science: Why Cream Butter and Sugar?

Does your cookie recipe call for creaming the butter by beating it with sugar? Just how important is that step, and how do you know if you're doing it right? We break down the science of creaming and explain exactly how to do it.

www.seriouseats.com

These cakes were made from the same batch of cake batter, baked at the same time, in the same oven. The only difference is I used different types of pans. This is how important the metal is in a baking. The top cake was a anodized aluminum pan. It conducts heat way too intensely. They bottom cake is a light metal uncoated pan. Unfortunately in the UK they have banned uncoated metal. But look for the lightest metal pans you can find.

 

[retired baker]

Ok thanks.

Oh gosh I had my first real doughnut ‘disaster’ today .

I basically activated fresh yeast in 60mls of milk at 95F and then added this to the kitchen aid bowl. The recipe calls for 11grams of instant yeast but I prefer fresh as instant is usually, as you have told me, too excitable during the first proof.

I allowed the ingredients to mix together with the dough hook for around 1 minute and then took the dough out to hand knead. It was so odd because within literally 2 minutes the dough became very tough and was springing back very quickly. I persisted and continue to knead up until 8 minutes which I was reluctant to do as it felt so developed already but it just seemed far too quick to be possible.

I then allowed it to proof and it proofed in half the time that it usually takes. I can now smell a very slight alcohol smell which is something I have never smelt being.

I’ve left them at room temperature for the second proof as opposed to leaving them in a warm place as I’m sure more heat will only exacerbate the problem.

A failed bake is always so disheartening and disappointing! ☹

Dry yeast goes into warm liquid, generally.

Fresh yest goes into cold liquid, add ice if necessary. cold milk is ok, tap water in warm weather absolutely needs ice.
Fresh yeast is already active, putting it in warm liquid over accelerates it , its pretty much burnt up before its finished mixing.
Warm flour in hot weather can easily ruin a fresh yeast dough if not compensated by ice in the liquid to lower the dough temp.

 

[LamsMekk]

Dry yeast goes into warm liquid, generally.

Fresh yest goes into cold liquid, add ice if necessary. cold milk is ok, tap water in warm weather absolutely needs ice.
Fresh yeast is already active, putting it in warm liquid over accelerates it , its pretty much burnt up before its finished mixing.
Warm flour in hot weather can easily ruin a fresh yeast dough if not compensated by ice in the liquid to lower the dough temp.

Ah so this is what happened! I used fresh yeast and it absolutely fermented out of control. I was in shock I just couldn’t understand it.

I googled the perfect temperature for fresh yeast, got my liquid to that point and it ended up being totally the wrong thing to do!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Ah so this is what happened! I used fresh yeast and it absolutely fermented out of control. I was in shock I just couldn’t understand it.

I googled the perfect temperature for fresh yeast, got my liquid to that point and it ended up being totally the wrong thing to do!

No. you have to work to DDT. That is your problem and it will remain your problem. Until you learn DDT, you will never have consist dough. The temperature of your dough is everything. BEFORE YOU MIX YOUR DOUGH YOU MUCH WORK OUT CALCULATIONS TO DETERMINE THE FINAL TEMPERATURE OF THE FINISHED DOUGH.

it is not that difficult.
you simply take and add up the room temperature, the floor temperature, the preferment temperature (if using), and friction factor from the mixter using the chart i sent you

subtract that total from the temperature you want your dough to be after it is mixed.

the answer will be the the temperature your liquid should be.

it does not matter what that liquid is, water, milk, a combination of both.


The only thing you can easily control is the temperature of the liquid. You cannot really easily can the temperature of the kitchen if you are running ovens; can’t change the temperature of flour if they are stored in hot kitchens or in the winter, freezing cold pantries; cannot change the temperature of you preferment. What you can easily do is change the temperature of your liquid.


I sent you the information about commercially produced doughnuts that included the bulk and proof fermentation humidity and temperature ranges. IF YOUR DOUGH IS NOT WITHIN THOSE RANGES WHEN IT IS FIRST MIXED, YOUR DOUGH WILL FAIL. You are hitting and missing because some days you get lucky and you are within those ranges; on other days you miss.


You must learn DDT if you want to consistent results. I am not going to answer any more doughnut questions. I’ve said all I will on this subject and you just refuse to listen.

 

[retired baker]

Ah so this is what happened! I used fresh yeast and it absolutely fermented out of control. I was in shock I just couldn’t understand it.

I googled the perfect temperature for fresh yeast, got my liquid to that point and it ended up being totally the wrong thing to do!

once you get cake yeast under control you'll never use dry yeast again.
the difference is stunning.

 

[LamsMekk]

No. you have to work to DDT. That is your problem and it will remain your problem. Until you learn DDT, you will never have consist dough. The temperature of your dough is everything. BEFORE YOU MIX YOUR DOUGH YOU MUCH WORK OUT CALCULATIONS TO DETERMINE THE FINAL TEMPERATURE OF THE FINISHED DOUGH.

it is not that difficult.
you simply take and add up the room temperature, the floor temperature, the preferment temperature (if using), and friction factor from the mixter using the chart i sent you

subtract that total from the temperature you want your dough to be after it is mixed.

the answer will be the the temperature your liquid should be.

it does not matter what that liquid is, water, milk, a combination of both.


The only thing you can easily control is the temperature of the liquid. You cannot really easily can the temperature of the kitchen if you are running ovens; can’t change the temperature of flour if they are stored in hot kitchens or in the winter, freezing cold pantries; cannot change the temperature of you preferment. What you can easily do is change the temperature of your liquid.


I sent you the information about commercially produced doughnuts that included the bulk and proof fermentation humidity and temperature ranges. IF YOUR DOUGH IS NOT WITHIN THOSE RANGES WHEN IT IS FIRST MIXED, YOUR DOUGH WILL FAIL. You are hitting and missing because some days you get lucky and you are within those ranges; on other days you miss.


You must learn DDT if you want to consistent results. I am not going to answer any more doughnut questions. I’ve said all I will on this subject and you just refuse to listen.

Oh gosh calm down, there really is no need to get angry about it it’s not that deep.


Take care

 

[LamsMekk]

once you get cake yeast under control you'll never use dry yeast again.
the difference is stunning.

Fresh yeast is easily available to me which is amazing as it’s super cheap to. They sell it in various sizes blocks.

Glad you explained why this happened to me as I was genuinely flabbergasted at how quickly the yeast fermented!!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Oh gosh calm down, there really is no need to get angry about it it’s not that deep.


Take care

I’m not angry. I’ve taken a lot of my personal time answering your questions here and your emails to my personal email address. I’ve sent you a considerable amount of information on commercial donut production. Included a lot of research that I normally wouldn’t provide to anyone.

Yeast is a living organism. There are certain standards if you want to produce a product consistently for sale. You’ve asked me multiple times in different ways about yeast. About consistency in dough production. I’ve answered the questions depth here in in personal emails. There are standards for commercial production if you want the product to reproduce consistently batch after batch.

You keep telling me your dough is inconsistent. But you have not done the DDT. When I tell you absolutely need to do DDT, you say you cannot for this reason or that reason. It doesn’t matter what yeast you use, you still must control the temperature of the dough. Whether it’s dry yeast or fresh yeast, you have to do DDT.