Pate a choux revisited

[Norcalbaker59]

“Eggs are as variable as er... eggs.”

ain’t the the truth!!!!

 

[Cahoot]

Oh wow, I guess I should stop complaining about the flour situation here. I have access to a lot of flours, yet I still complain that its not enough. I’m such an ingrate.

I agree that given your limited access to flour, it may be blend flours. And maybe increase your hydration a bit. I have a recipe that is pretty close to your ratios, just slightly higher. It’s not mine, but developed by a professional baker. I made some minor changes to the mixing, nothing major. If you like I can pass it on to you. Let me know.


That article was odd...its factually wrong on so many points.

If you don't mind then I'd appreciate the recipe!

Made another batch today, this time blending flours to approximate 11% protein, made sure the water was at a full boil before adding flour to ensure no lumps, and had a full very long preheat. I also added an extra 20% eggs in the form of leftover egg whites to the choux paste since it still could've used more hydration, and even then I could've added more (still wasn't glossy, and didn't quite pass the "V" or streaking a finger through tests), but decided to see how it went as-is.

I wasn't able to monitor the baking for the entire time, but was able to check periodically. I noticed that after 15 minutes in the oven, they still held on to their shapes well with no cracks. However when I checked again after 30 or 35 minutes, the same cracks had developed in the sides. That makes sense with what retired baker side about the side blowouts happening in the later part of the bake... as I don't think I can control the vents in my oven, maybe the best way to control the moisture then is just opening the door? I know you've recommended against doing so, but I'm just wondering whether having a pan of water in the oven will also contribute to too much moisture later, resulting in the same side cracks. Maybe it's too much aeration too? Since I'm using a hand mixer, the beaters as opposed to a paddle attachment are likely incorporating much more air than people using stand mixers.

Also ended up baking for a total of 50 instead of 40 minutes, and got a much nicer darker colour this time.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

If you don't mind then I'd appreciate the recipe!

Made another batch today, this time blending flours to approximate 11% protein, made sure the water was at a full boil before adding flour to ensure no lumps, and had a full very long preheat. I also added an extra 20% eggs in the form of leftover egg whites to the choux paste since it still could've used more hydration, and even then I could've added more (still wasn't glossy, and didn't quite pass the "V" or streaking a finger through tests), but decided to see how it went as-is.

I wasn't able to monitor the baking for the entire time, but was able to check periodically. I noticed that after 15 minutes in the oven, they still held on to their shapes well with no cracks. However when I checked again after 30 or 35 minutes, the same cracks had developed in the sides. That makes sense with what retired baker side about the side blowouts happening in the later part of the bake... as I don't think I can control the vents in my oven, maybe the best way to control the moisture then is just opening the door? I know you've recommended against doing so, but I'm just wondering whether having a pan of water in the oven will also contribute to too much moisture later, resulting in the same side cracks. Maybe it's too much aeration too? Since I'm using a hand mixer, the beaters as opposed to a paddle attachment are likely incorporating much more air than people using stand mixers.

Also ended up baking for a total of 50 instead of 40 minutes, and got a much nicer darker colour this time.

you definitely don’t want to open the oven during baking is your heat will escape.

since you’re without a stand mixer you would be better off mixing by hand with paddle, like a rice paddle, or a wood spoon. The beaters would definitely be incorporating way too much air into the dough.

You don’t want a lot of moisture in the oven. Just enough to add some humility to the air. I use a metal pie plate and add a scant inch of boiling water.

i’ll dig that recipe out of my baking binder and send it your way. If I recall the hydration on it was 80% on a 12% protein flour but don’t quote me on that.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Cahoot, I sent you the recipe.

 

[Cahoot]

@Cahoot, I sent you the recipe.

I've made the recipe a couple times now, and it was definitely an improvement over before, but some side cracks were still present. The recipe's pretty similar to what I was doing before, but the major changes have been:

• Slightly increased hydration
• Used greased and floured sheet instead of lining with parchment
• I also finally got my stand mixer delivered, so I was able to mix with that instead of using my hand mixer.

I tried baking at the as-written temperature of 375°F for 40 minutes, as well as 350°F for 50 minutes, and I got smaller cracks with the lower temperature. So as of now, those cracks aren't huge splits in the sides like my previous pictures, and some were barely even noticeable which I'm very happy about, but I'm on a mission to eliminate them entirely, if possible. I was able to monitor the choux more closely in the oven, and the cracks only start to appear after about 20-25 minutes.

How would you consider proceeding from here? Since the issue is supposed to be too much moisture in the later part of the bake, I'm not sure if I should mess around with the hydration from the water/milk/eggs. Personally, I think I could give a pan of water in the oven a try, and/or maybe lower the protein in the flour by a percentage. The recipe mentions having vents open after 20 minutes, but unfortunately that's not an option for me - I'd guess that it would help quite a lot with this problem if it was!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I've made the recipe a couple times now, and it was definitely an improvement over before, but some side cracks were still present. The recipe's pretty similar to what I was doing before, but the major changes have been:

• Slightly increased hydration
• Used greased and floured sheet instead of lining with parchment
• I also finally got my stand mixer delivered, so I was able to mix with that instead of using my hand mixer.

I tried baking at the as-written temperature of 375°F for 40 minutes, as well as 350°F for 50 minutes, and I got smaller cracks with the lower temperature. So as of now, those cracks aren't huge splits in the sides like my previous pictures, and some were barely even noticeable which I'm very happy about, but I'm on a mission to eliminate them entirely, if possible. I was able to monitor the choux more closely in the oven, and the cracks only start to appear after about 20-25 minutes.

How would you consider proceeding from here? Since the issue is supposed to be too much moisture in the later part of the bake, I'm not sure if I should mess around with the hydration from the water/milk/eggs. Personally, I think I could give a pan of water in the oven a try, and/or maybe lower the protein in the flour by a percentage. The recipe mentions having vents open after 20 minutes, but unfortunately that's not an option for me - I'd guess that it would help quite a lot with this problem if it was!

Great to hear you have a stand mixer!!

Yes, the recipe is close to what you were using, just slightly higher in hydration. Given the higher protein flour in Canada, I thought it might work better with the higher hydration.

I don’t know if I mention this before, but the size of the pot matters. It‘s kind of like the 3 Little Bears thing, not too big or the dough dries out too much. Not too small, otherwise the dough doesn’t dry out enough. Just right and the dough dries out perfectly.

Also, when cooking the dough, cut through it and spread it out in the pan as you stir to help dry it out.

If the dough is dry enough, then adding some water in the oven will be of help. I would give it a go at this point. You are doing everything right. I think other than a silpat, adding water is the only other thing you can try.

I’m not surprised you are getting a better result at lower temperature. I think most bakers end up baking at lower temps.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Cahoot, since you are working on pate a choux, I thought you might enjoy this article by Dorie Greenspan

Baking During Quarantine as an Act of Faith (Published 2020)

I always have a batch or two of French cheese puffs in the freezer, even if it might be a while until I have friends over.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Cahoot]

@Cahoot, since you are working on pate a choux, I thought you might enjoy this article by Dorie Greenspan

Baking During Quarantine as an Act of Faith (Published 2020)

I always have a batch or two of French cheese puffs in the freezer, even if it might be a while until I have friends over.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks for linking the article, it was a great read . I've always wanted to make gougères, but I'm afraid that if I did, I wouldn't be able to stop eating them!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks for linking the article, it was a great read . I've always wanted to make gougères, but I'm afraid that if I did, I wouldn't be able to stop eating them!

I just thought it was a nice read. I love Dorie Greenspan. She is one of my favorite bakers.

 

[Cahoot]

I've been spamming this thread a lot, but to give an update on the éclair situation, I did another couple tests with water in a pan and those have been the best results yet. I tried using only 80 ml water to start with, then another batch with 120 ml, though there wasn't a noticeable difference. While side cracks still aren't completely eliminated, they're even smaller now. As they say, "perfect is the enemy of good", and I'm happy with what I've got, so time to take a break from testing (and my freezer only has so much space haha).

On another note, they're technically made from pâte à choux, so I thought I'd share the churros I made yesterday. My brother and I had these amazing guava-filled churros at a place from LA when we visited last summer, and I was finally able to recreate them. And similarly with éclairs, they're a blank canvas for flavours as fillings, toppings, or dippings!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I've been spamming this thread a lot, but to give an update on the éclair situation, I did another couple tests with water in a pan and those have been the best results yet. I tried using only 80 ml water to start with, then another batch with 120 ml, though there wasn't a noticeable difference. While side cracks still aren't completely eliminated, they're even smaller now. As they say, "perfect is the enemy of good", and I'm happy with what I've got, so time to take a break from testing (and my freezer only has so much space haha).

On another note, they're technically made from pâte à choux, so I thought I'd share the churros I made yesterday. My brother and I had these amazing guava-filled churros at a place from LA when we visited last summer, and I was finally able to recreate them. And similarly with éclairs, they're a blank canvas for flavours as fillings, toppings, or dippings!

View attachment 2873

@Cahoot OMG! Those look so amazing! You nailed it!!! The plate is really cool too. I’m glad the water seems to help. pate a choux is project. It took me a dozen tries and adjustments to get it down. No one gets it the first time. It’s an effort. But these say you did it. High Five!!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Oh I almost forgot—What did you fill them with????

 

[Cahoot]

@Cahoot OMG! Those look so amazing! You nailed it!!! The plate is really cool too. I’m glad the water seems to help. pate a choux is project. It took me a dozen tries and adjustments to get it down. No one gets it the first time. It’s an effort. But these say you did it. High Five!!

Thank you! It's hard to overstate how much I appreciate your advice and encouragement

Oh I almost forgot—What did you fill them with????

It was a guava filling made from guava paste thinned with guava nectar. Had to make a trip to a Latin grocery store (before the social distancing) just to get the paste, but it was definitely worth it as you can't really find that flavouring anywhere else around here.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you! It's hard to overstate how much I appreciate your advice and encouragement


It was a guava filling made from guava paste thinned with guava nectar. Had to make a trip to a Latin grocery store (before the social distancing) just to get the paste, but it was definitely worth it as you can't really find that flavouring anywhere else around here.

That sounds really Delicious. I’ve never seen stuffed churros. I really like that idea. when we get off lock down I am going to have to give it a try. I can’t eat gluten, so everything I bake has to go to family or friends.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

And they really do look amazing!!!

 

[Cahoot]

That sounds really Delicious. I’ve never seen stuffed churros. I really like that idea. when we get off lock down I am going to have to give it a try. I can’t eat gluten, so everything I bake has to go to family or friends.

Your friends and family will be so lucky when you send them these! Some other filling flavours I remember were the classic chocolate, dulce de leche, strawberry, condensed milk, and cheesecake. We have some cans of sweetened condensed milk lying around in the pantry, so I was tempted to also make some dulce de leche and have a spread of multiple flavours, but ultimately it wouldn't have been worth it just for our family. Would be fun if serving a large group though. I'd like to see what you come up with when you get around to making them!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

@Cahoot i’ll probably make up a fillings like a passionfruit curd, elderberry lemon cream, or blackberry. Or maybe a tangerine curd. Then drizzle with a tempered chocolate.

That would give different textures. The creamy filling i’d be light and refreshing. The pate a choux has its own light crunch from being fried. Then the crisp snap of the chocolate.

 

[Cahoot]

Time to visit pâte à choux once again . I saw a technique of spraying éclair shells with a neutral oil before baking to help prevent cracks, so decided to try it out, and managed to actually get some pretty good results. Excuse the curved éclair at the front lol, I didn't even notice it being curved before putting it in the oven.

I sprayed one half of the shells with nonstick spray then dusted with powdered sugar, and the other half just got the nonstick spray, no powdered sugar dusting. You can see that the ones that didn't have any powdered sugar dusting were too pale, and interestingly also had more cracks. The ones that did get dusted with powdered sugar had much fewer cracks, albeit some still were. But the majority having no or very small cracks beats all of them having blowouts on the sides!

I experimented with a slightly different baking/drying temperature and time for this batch, and unfortunately they weren't dried enough and some did collapse a bit. But nonetheless happy with the results. If anyone else is having issues with cracks in the sides of their éclair shells, maybe try this technique of coating them with a fat. I've also seen clarified butter, cocoa butter, and deodorized coconut oil used instead.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Time to visit pâte à choux once again . I saw a technique of spraying éclair shells with a neutral oil before baking to help prevent cracks, so decided to try it out, and managed to actually get some pretty good results. Excuse the curved éclair at the front lol, I didn't even notice it being curved before putting it in the oven.

I sprayed one half of the shells with nonstick spray then dusted with powdered sugar, and the other half just got the nonstick spray, no powdered sugar dusting. You can see that the ones that didn't have any powdered sugar dusting were too pale, and interestingly also had more cracks. The ones that did get dusted with powdered sugar had much fewer cracks, albeit some still were. But the majority having no or very small cracks beats all of them having blowouts on the sides!

I experimented with a slightly different baking/drying temperature and time for this batch, and unfortunately they weren't dried enough and some did collapse a bit. But nonetheless happy with the results. If anyone else is having issues with cracks in the sides of their éclair shells, maybe try this technique of coating them with a fat. I've also seen clarified butter, cocoa butter, and deodorized coconut oil used instead.

View attachment 3291
View attachment 3290

Those look really good @Cahoot! I would have never guessed that a light coating of oil and some powdered sugar would stop cracking. What temperature did you bake? I see you are baking on a silicone mat now. I think that the surface you bake on makes a difference too.

 

[Cahoot]

Those look really good @Cahoot! I would have never guessed that a light coating of oil and some powdered sugar would stop cracking. What temperature did you bake? I see you are baking on a silicone mat now. I think that the surface you bake on makes a difference too.

I did a test before I found out about the oil coating technique, changing from greased + floured pan to silicone mat, but it didn't make any significant difference. I haven't had a change to test silicone vs. parchment with the oil coating but I've seen most people use silicone anyway. Or more specifically Silpain is preferred, but no way I'm shelling out the money for that right now lol.

I piped these with an Ateco 868 tip (second largest in their line of French tips), about 5" long. Baked at 350°F for 45 minutes, then cracked the oven door open with a wooden spoon and lowered to 300°F to bake for another 15 minutes. After they cooled, I noticed they were still too soft so popped them in a 375°F oven (it was already on baking something else) for another 5 minutes, but even that wasn't enough.

Next time I'm thinking of trying 350°F for 45 minutes, then 300°F for 15 minutes, then crack open the oven door and bake at 300°F for another 10-15 minutes to dry out. Since the oil+powdered sugar seems to make them brown more than just powdered sugar, I'm hesitant to bake at the higher temperature for longer as the ridges might get too dark.

Something else I did differently to help with piping was letting the choux paste cool down first. The batch that I make (scaled to 100g flour) is just enough to comfortably fit into an 18" pastry bag, so I transferred it all to the bag after I finished making it and popped it in the fridge for 30 minutes. I find the cooled paste, being less sticky and runny, makes it easier to cleanly cut off the ends when piping.