Cheese Puffs

[Norcalbaker59]

Sorry, I can't add the photo of the other side and I don't know why. Not being able to see clearly what's on the screen might be the problem.
The recipe I used:
3/4 bar butter
1 cup water
1/2 teas, salt
1 cup flour
4 eggs
1-1/2 cups shredded cheddar
1 TBS dill
Combine butter, water and salt and heat, stirring constantly until dough forms a ball pulling away from the sides. Temperature should read 165-175. Move dough to mixer bowl and add eggs, one at a time on low speed until mixture is silky and bowl is cool. Add cheese and dill. Drop on a silicone lined sheet and bake 25 minutes at 400. Pierce each with a skewer and leave in oven 30 minutes.

I reheated some of the Puffs from the day before. They got nice and crunchy and we really liked them. (I think I can feel you cringing.) While I may not be able to get them to be and stay crispy outside and soft inside, what turned out was OK.

how are you measuring your flour?

spoon and level method:
Stir the floure; using a spoon to fill the measuring cup; then use a knife to level the flour even with the cup
= approximately 120 g flour per cup



Dip and sweep method:
stir the flour; dip the cup into the flour bag; then Use a knife to level the flour Even with the cup rim
= approximately 145 g flour per cup

It’s important because there’s a significant difference in the amount of flour by weight.


Using a scale and metric weight is the best way to bake.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

3/4 bar butter 6oz stated amount	170	141
Water	250	208
Salt	3	2.5
Flour 120g - 145g	120	100
Eggs 50g each	200	166
Cheese 4-6 oz cup	170	141
Total dough wt	913
Total Baker’s %		758.5

When you have a baking fail, the first place to start is calculate and analyze the baker’s percentages.

But when volume measurements are used, it’s impossible to calculate the baker’s percentages. The best that can be done is guesstimates of the weights. From the guesstimates, I calculated these baker’s percentages.

What the baker’s percentages show is excessive liquid and fat in this formula.

Water: While water is required for gluten, excessive water will destroy dough. A high hydration dough has 70% hydration (water). This formula has 208%. Now pate a choux is an outlier in that it is twice cooked, the first cooking on the stovetop evaporates water. So a choux dough can start with more water than the average dough. But still, 208% extraordinary high—especially with the bleached white flour which is a moderate level protein flour.

Butter: fat inhibits gluten development. The fat is on the higher side. That in of itself would not be an issue if not for the extraordinary amount of water. There is no way to create a strong dough with such high percentages of both water and fat—not to mention a bleached white flour.

Cheese: The cheese to flour ratio is significantly higher than it should be at 170%. I mentioned in an earlier post the ratio of cheese to flour should be about 125% - 130% for most cheeses. Cheese is both fat and weight. When you have a weak dough and the added weight of the extra cheese, the dough collapses. Multiply the weight of the flour by 1.25 - 1.30 to determine the weight of the cheese to use in the dough.

Assuming eggs out of the shell are 50g each, the egg amount of egg used is in the wheelhouse.

Salt is slightly higher at 2.5% than the standard of 1.5%. The salt should be adjusted for the type of cheese used—some cheeses are saltier than others.

Frankly, the amount of work to fix the recipe to make it work is just not worth the effort. I would recommend you use Serious Eats and Devil Food’s Kitchen recipes.

Devil’s Food Kitchen has more liquid, less fat (butter), and cheese in the standard ratio.

Serious Eats takes the opposite approach to ensure the dough developed the correct amount of gluten. Less liquid, a lot more fat, but less cheese to weigh the dough down.

These different approaches will produce puffs with slightly different textures and flavors. But trying both you’ll see how you can achieve a puff by counterbalancing the liquid against the fats. Then you can decide which one you like better.

I would encourage you to buy and use a scale if you plan to bake regularly. A scale is accurate and understanding your Baker’s percentages allows you to analyze the formula, decide if and what needs revision before baking; allows you to track changes; allows for scale. Baking by weight is also the most reproducible method.

If you are going to bake by volume, you need to understand that different recipe developers use different standards for 1 cup of flour. So you need to know what their standard is for 1 cup to metric conversion and how they measure flour by volume to achieve that standard.

Also, the UK and US weights and measures are different. Panama uses the same system as the US. When using a recipe from the UK, you have to convert it into Imperial measurements. For example, US fluid 1 cup measure is 8 oz = 236 mL. The UK technically is 1 cup fluid = 8.45 oz = 240mL. But the international 250mL = 1 cup is commonly used.

 

[DonnaJ]

The GMO issue is very interesting. If US farmers can't afford to use the chemicals, what countries are rich enough to be able to afford to do this? If the modified corn is being sent to Africa, who's sending it and where did they get it from? The small farmers in the US are the ones growing truly organic food as they really can't afford to buy the fungicides, herbicides, fertilizers and pesticides. Modern methods have gotten more yield from less land. The used of all the "cides" helps this process, making more money for the corporate owners. The residue from all these goes into the ground just like you said, ultimately contaminating the ground water and all it touches. As the plants drink water in the ground, why wouldn't they be affected by this? There is nothing we can do about this. It most likely won't affect us in our lifetimes. We got though the smoking era and the opioid era where both were touted as fine. In another 50 years, all the chemicals put on crops may be found to not be so.

I appreciate you doing so much research to help me with the Cheese Puffs. I am thinking the humid climate, called tropical to attract tourists, has some culpability when trying to keep things crispy. I've had it cause cookies that started out crunchy to get limp.

We live with what we have where we are.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

The GMO issue is very interesting. If US farmers can't afford to use the chemicals, what countries are rich enough to be able to afford to do this? If the modified corn is being sent to Africa, who's sending it and where did they get it from? The small farmers in the US are the ones growing truly organic food as they really can't afford to buy the fungicides, herbicides, fertilizers and pesticides. Modern methods have gotten more yield from less land. The used of all the "cides" helps this process, making more money for the corporate owners. The residue from all these goes into the ground just like you said, ultimately contaminating the ground water and all it touches. As the plants drink water in the ground, why wouldn't they be affected by this? There is nothing we can do about this. It most likely won't affect us in our lifetimes. We got though the smoking era and the opioid era where both were touted as fine. In another 50 years, all the chemicals put on crops may be found to not be so.

I appreciate you doing so much research to help me with the Cheese Puffs. I am thinking the humid climate, called tropical to attract tourists, has some culpability when trying to keep things crispy. I've had it cause cookies that started out crunchy to get limp.

We live with what we have where we are.

Pate a choux products no matter what the climate is best consumed within hours after baking. Like laminated dough, these products lose their crispy texture quickly due to the high fat content.

There’s a misconception that organic is produced without pesticides and herbicides. There are a number of select synthetic and nonsynthetic pesticides and herbicides used in organic farming. It just isn’t possible to produce a viable cash crop of any meaningful scale without controlling pests and weeds.

US “organic” labeling laws allow farmers to use conventional herbicides and pesticides if those on the select synthetic and non-synthetic list prove to be effective.

Packaged foods labeled “organic” are only required to contain 70%.

GMO seed is provided to Africa by the Alliance for a Green Revolution in Africa (AGRA), mainly funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the RockefellerFfoundationn. The first chairman was former United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan

AGRA’s objectives/intentions are very noble in that the program is intended to transform smallholder farmers from subsistence model (family farm only produces food to live) to a business model.

There are some 33 million smallholder farmers in Africa alone. And while they contribute to 70% of the food supply, they do not produce enough to both feed their families and produce a cash crop to improve their lives beyond poverty. They live in extreme poverty at $1.90 USD per day.

AGRA’s goal is to help these smallholder farmers increase their yields so they can meet the food needs of their families and have a cash crop to sell.

Farmers in some areas have realized increased yields, and some farmers are in fact benefiting from the program. However, a recent study of the program (funded by the Gates Foundation) found the program was failing in a number of areas.

An independent study conducted by Timothy Wise of Tufts University also found many issues with the AGRA program.

I think the program needs to be overhauled, with more input from local farmers and an emphasis on native and traditional food plants.

The Gates Foundation recently expanded their Board of Directors. Melinda Gates also conducted a working dinner discussion with global health experts. One of the African women Who participated in this discussion told Ms. Gates they needed to change how the foundation interacted with grant recipients--mainly the Foundation needed to give they more of a voice and give up some of the exacting controls attached to all their donations. I second that observation.

The recipients best understand their culture and society. One of the problems with maize is it’s not an traditional African food. As such, it does not sell well in the market place. The farmer may have extra crop to sell, but it’s not a crop Africans want to buy and eat. So it's a excess crop without being a cash crop. These farmers need to be able to choose their own crops.

 

[DonnaJ]

Consuming all the Cheese Puffs shortly after baking would be tempting, but I don't think I want to go there. They did reheat to fairly crispy the second day. By the third day, they were soggy and beyond reheating, so became dog treats. They loved them. There are only two of us, I like to try things. Good thing we have the dogs.

The big and powerful people are doing what they mostly do when handling a project be it either charitable or for themselves. They need to be in control and do it their way. So they got corn, which was inappropriate for the area they were trying to help. It was probably a great deal. Hopefully, they can send it to another area to grow as corn has been in Africa since about 1500 after Columbus brought it back from what was to become Mexico. It was a hit and became a staple in most places that could grow it., but it needs lots of water and depletes the soil. Asking what the people could grow in their area (who knows it better?) would have been a good idea, but that's not how things usually work when the rich and powerful try to help. It would be nice if it could be worked out to everyone's benefit. I don't think if you are hungry enough, you will eat anything should apply. I don't suppose AGRA can dictate how the rich foundations spend their money, but having an assortment of seed to choose what works best in your area would be a good idea.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Consuming all the Cheese Puffs shortly after baking would be tempting, but I don't think I want to go there. They did reheat to fairly crispy the second day. By the third day, they were soggy and beyond reheating, so became dog treats. They loved them. There are only two of us, I like to try things. Good thing we have the dogs.

The big and powerful people are doing what they mostly do when handling a project be it either charitable or for themselves. They need to be in control and do it their way. So they got corn, which was inappropriate for the area they were trying to help. It was probably a great deal. Hopefully, they can send it to another area to grow as corn has been in Africa since about 1500 after Columbus brought it back from what was to become Mexico. It was a hit and became a staple in most places that could grow it., but it needs lots of water and depletes the soil. Asking what the people could grow in their area (who knows it better?) would have been a good idea, but that's not how things usually work when the rich and powerful try to help. It would be nice if it could be worked out to everyone's benefit. I don't think if you are hungry enough, you will eat anything should apply. I don't suppose AGRA can dictate how the rich foundations spend their money, but having an assortment of seed to choose what works best in your area would be a good idea.

Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with reheating the puffs. Just don’t keep them too long because the fat content means a short shelf life.

It always baffles me how the wealthy approach charity, especially when dealing with other cultures. I call it Charitable Colonialism--charitable giving for cultural and political control. They erase the culture and identity of the people they are assisting and control what they produce, how they produce it, and how it gets to market.

but the Gates Foundation did a study of the food program is a good first step. Hopefully they’ll make some adjustments.

 

[DonnaJ]

I found an article on puff pastry by a woman who is clearly obsessing over it. It's really long, but has good photos and I think she answers most any questions someone could have. She does not appear to think a thermometer is needed as she didn't mention one. Personally, I think anything that helps is good.
theflavorbender.com/how-to-make-perfect-choux-pastry

I also found an article on wheat and thought it would be interesting for you. I cannot figure out how to add it here. It's Wheat Exports by Country 2021. Try it on Google or what you use.

DonnaJ

 

[Norcalbaker59]

I found an article on puff pastry by a woman who is clearly obsessing over it. It's really long, but has good photos and I think she answers most any questions someone could have. She does not appear to think a thermometer is needed as she didn't mention one. Personally, I think anything that helps is good.
theflavorbender.com/how-to-make-perfect-choux-pastry

I also found an article on wheat and thought it would be interesting for you. I cannot figure out how to add it here. It's Wheat Exports by Country 2021. Try it on Google or what you use.

DonnaJ

She can do whatever she wants in her kitchen.

Professional chefs and bakers use thermometers all the time. And there is a reason for it.

The reason a thermometer is important is most people undercook the dough. Just looking at the dough cannot tell you if starch gelatinization has been triggered in the flour. That is a chemical reaction that as a baker you can’t confirm just by looking at the dough.


For home bakers don’t get any training in the science of baking. They don't understand why they measure, mix, and cook in the order given in the recipe. They don’t understand any of the chemical reactions that are happening between the ingredients.

When a home baker uses a recipe, they’re just blindly following instructions without any understanding of what they are doing. When exact measurements in weight and temperature are given, some of the unknowns are removed.

I just don’t put any stock in any baker who says the most fundamental tools used in professional baking are unnecessary.

The scale and the thermometer are the two most important tools used in baking.

 

[DonnaJ]

WOO!! PLEASE, take a breath! I in no way meant to offend you. She didn't oppose the use of thermometers, she just never mentioned them at all. She has perfected a method that works for her and most likely was the way this was done decades ago when people didn't have the nifty tools we have now. She is a historian type, you are a technical scientific type. Both are good information for those of us on the outside of these areas.

Anyone who braves the mysteries of the kitchen and tries to follow a recipe gets my applause. They are trying to make something good for someone they love. If the magic works, so much the better. I have no idea how a carburetor works but I did drive a car. All of us don't need a full understanding of the things we do or use. It's good there are people just like you to turn to for this technical information if we want to pursue it.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

WOO!! PLEASE, take a breath! I in no way meant to offend you. She didn't oppose the use of thermometers, she just never mentioned them at all. She has perfected a method that works for her and most likely was the way this was done decades ago when people didn't have the nifty tools we have now. She is a historian type, you are a technical scientific type. Both are good information for those of us on the outside of these areas.

Anyone who braves the mysteries of the kitchen and tries to follow a recipe gets my applause. They are trying to make something good for someone they love. If the magic works, so much the better. I have no idea how a carburetor works but I did drive a car. All of us don't need a full understanding of the things we do or use. It's good there are people just like you to turn to for this technical information if we want to pursue it.

I’ve taken classes with food historians, including in Italy, and with the food historian for the Getty Museum, one of the most prestigious museums in the world.

One of the things they teach in food history is the quality of the food produced in the past compared to the quality of its modern counterpart produced today.

Ingredients are discussed in depth in food history classes. Modern flour and butter is nothing like the flour and butter that would have used when pate a choux was developed. The performance of these ingredients would have been completely different from the performance of their modern-day equivalents.

Further, the quality of baked goods produced in the past were very poor. Somethings weren’t even meant to be eaten, such as the crust on pie.

One of most fundamental aspect of historical reproduction of food is reproducing the ingredients exactly as they would’ve been reproduced in that time period. That means hand stone milled flour; fresh cream, unpasteurized churned into butter. Cooking would be done in a hand made pot, on an open fire. No modern tools or modern ingredients are used in historic reproduction. And I guarantee the finished product you get is nothing like the modern equivalent.

This hold true for vintage recipes. If you review my older posts on vintage recipes, I discuss the need to research the time period to understand what ingredient brands were commonly used at that time; the difference in measurement used; and other differences. Because reproduction of a vintage recipe, like great grandmother’s spice cookie, with modern ingredients does not reproduce an authentic reproduction.


If she is in fact promoting historic methods and the lack of modern equipment as proof these tools are not needed, it just speaks to her ignorance about both baking and food history.

I do take issue with anyone those who promotes misinformation; bad work habits; methods that don’t conform to baking standards. Stating they didn't use thermometers in the past so bakers don't need them now is about as ignorant as it comes. If science didn’t matter they would not teach it in every single culinary school in every country in the world. If thermometers didn’t matter it would not be a tool used in every culinary school and kitchen in the world. I have never worked with any professional chef, instructor, or been in any kitchen that didn’t use a thermometer. I have no textbooks or professional formulas that do not state temperatures for preparations.


This forum is to educate bakers. And I want make sure those reading this thread understand the proper baking standards. The importance of thermometers and scales, and why they are important.

And don’t tell me to take a breath. if you don’t like my tone, too bad.

 

[DonnaJ]

Your last line says it all. I'm done.