Let's Talk Pie Crust: Rolling out, Blind Baking, etc. Your Method?

[J13]

Well, we've concluded that all fats (i.e. those commonly used in pie crusts), if proportioned right, will give you the same pie crust results (if not the same flavor). And we've concluded that of the liquids commonly used in pie crust (usually in addition to water), only water is needed to create a tender flakey piecrust--again, if portioned correctly (exception: using an egg which makes for a more cookie-like crust). I'm not going bother discussing flour as I think we can all agree that all-purpose is the best white flour for a crust (lower protein as compared to high protein bread flour). Though I will ask...what about pastry flour? Is it better for a pie crust than all purpose?

~Other types of Flour: I think we can also agree that if you want to use a different type of flour for your pie crust (whole wheat, for example) you should NOT just substitute it into a recipe that was using all purpose. To get the best results, find recipe for pie crust using that particular flour.

Okay. So let's get to what this thread is really about. We have the right proportions, we've made the pie dough....

~Resting the dough: After being made, how long should the dough rest before rolling out? A lot of recipes call for putting that disk of dough in the refrigerator to rest for 30-60 minutes. But others argue that there's no point to that--you'll just have to bang on the chilled dough with your rolling pin to soften it. Roll it out right after you've made it, while it's pliable. Once it's in the pie plate, then you can let it rest in the refrigerator.

So: Is there a benefit to resting before rather than after rolling?

~Rolling out the dough: How much flour should you use on your board? How thin should you roll it out? Is there a "right" method to the rolling so you get a smooth sheet of the size and shape you want? Alternately, is there a good way to minimize getting a crust that looks like a continent and needs to be cut-and-pasted into a round shape?

~And what about baking time? Older recipes, concerned about burning the crust, rarely had a pie in the oven for longer than an hour, but some bakers now advocate longer, not only to make sure the filling is cooked to perfection, but that the crust is super good. Thoughts?

Finally, there are some five common issues bakers have with pie crusts during baking. What methods do you use to solve them?

(1) Difficulties with blind baking: instructions vary when it comes to blind baking. Some recipes say put in parchment paper, weigh it down (beans, rice, sugar...), bake X number of minutes in the oven, remove weights and finish baking. Others say bake all the way, then remove weights. Either way, I know I have trouble with blind baking, especially removing that weighted parchment. Crust gets stuck to it and tears.

(2) Shrinkage: Another blind baking problem. The pie crust shrinks. Obviously, the weights are meant to take care of this, but the fluted crust on the lip of the pie plate can still shrink inward...are there any other tips/tricks for avoiding a shrinking pie crust?

(3) Soggy bottoms in fruit pies: Best method for avoiding this?

(4) Domed tops with a lot of air between crust and filling: Typically an apple pie problem, and I actually, I know the answer to this one: don't put the apple filling into the pie raw. Put it in a pan and cook it on the stovetop for about ten minutes, let cool, then decant into the crust. I'll let NorCal discuss the science of why doming happens and why this fix works

Bonus question: Do you need to dot the top of fruit pie fillings (like apple) with butter before putting the top crust on? Or was that the old way of avoiding the domed top?

(5) Burned bottoms.

Any issues I didn't cover? Extra tips & tricks to making sure that pie crust comes out awesome?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Resting the dough: again those that advocate rolling out the dough right away do so because of the difficulty of rolling out a dry under hydrated dough.


The rock hard dough that to be beat with the rolling pin is also a result of a dry, under hydrated dough. If the dough is properly hydrated, it’s easy to roll it out.


And when proper hydration is used it’s important to rest the dough to allow the flour to absorb the water and allow the gluten to relax. Resting the dough is important if you don’t want your pie dough to shrink.


I always make my dough the day before. Then leave the dough on the counter for about 10 minutes before rolling. Lightly dust the work surface, the dough, and the rolling pin. Gently tap down on the with the rolling pin from the center to the outside edge. Turn the dough a quarter turn and repeat. And continue around the dough until you complete.


Then begin to roll from the center out, turn the dough a quarter turn after each pass of the pin to ensure the dough does not stick to the work surface. Lightly flour the work surface, dough, and pin as needed.


Baking time: Baking is really tricky because everyone’s oven is different. I bake at 400°F (204°C). I placed the rack low in the oven. I preheat the RIMMED baking sheet as that helps to cook the bottom crust rather than put the pie in the oven on a cold baking sheet. I set the timer for 35 minutes, then I place a sheet of light aluminum foil, never heavy duty over the pie. that keeps the crust edge from burning.


The indication that the pie is baked enough is the filling must be bubbling in the center of the pie. So I always make sure I have a vent hole in the center of the pie. That could be 50 minutes, it could be 65 minutes. The pie is done when I see the filling bubbling in the center. Doesn’t have to be a rolling boil of course, but it needs to show some bubbling.


But this is what works in my oven. You have to experiment with your oven.


Blind baking: I don’t like high heat blind baking. I bake at 350°F (170°C). I also don’t like parchment paper. I use the light aluminum foil, not the heavy duty. I crumple it up and then uncrumple it. You have to be careful with it because the light weight aluminum tears easily. I like rice, instead of beans or sugar. I bake it most of the way and then I remove the rice.


Shrinkage: the vast majority of shrinkage is due to overworking the dough, developing too much gluten. If too much gluten is developed, resting the pie dough won’t even prevent shrinking. So often you hear people say it’s too much water. My piecrust doesn’t shrink much at all, and I use 30% hydration. It comes down to how much gluten you develop.


Apple pie filling shrinkage:

Here’s the science: apples are very high in pectin. At temperatures over 180°F the pectin breaks down, the cells release the water. And the apples turned to mush. It’s actually not butter that helps the apple filling hold together better, but an acid; that’s why many recipes call for adding lemon juice. Some varieties of apples hold up better in an acidic base such as the Granny Smith apple.


But you can stabilize the pectin cells by heating the apples to 140° to 160°F for about 10 minutes, then cooling them.


There’s different ways to do this, the stove top is the traditional way. Heat the apples in a large skillet on the stovetop until just barely tender. Then cool.


Another method is to place the apples in a bowl, pour boiling water over the apples, Cover and let sit for about 10 minutes. Drain well and cool.


Sous vide, which I’ve only used once, in which the apples are heated at 160°F for one hour, then cool.


NOW, here’s my reality...In the past two years no matter what I do, I cannot stop the apple shrinkage. I’ve used everyone of these techniques. Now if I bake hand pies they are fine. If I bake a lattice pie it’s fine. But if I bake a fully covered pie I get a lot shrinkage, no matter what I do. No matter what blend of apples with are use; no matter which one of these cooking techniques are use, I get a lot of shrinkage. It’s never happened in the past. Just in the past two years. And I’m baffled as to why. The only difference is I’ve stopped using a deep dish and I use an cutter/corer. So it must have something to do with the moisture in the apples getting trapped under the crust. It may be the apple slices are too big. It may be for apple pie a butter and lard blend crust would be better. I have some leaf lard in the freezer. So I need to experiments with thinner slices and butter and lard.


Burnt bottoms/soggy bottoms: rather than burnt bottoms I think a more ubiquitous problem is undercooked soggy bottoms. The soggy bottom is due to low oven temperature, the wrong thickener, not enough thickener. Also I macerate the fruit in a bit of sugar for 20 - 30 minutes, then drain it well and reduce the juices and add some thickener, then add it back to the fruit. I then use Stella Parks ratios for thickening.


For high water content fruit filling like blueberries and cherries:



Macerate fruit for 20 - 30 minutes by adding 1/2 of sugar from the amount below

Drain juice, and reduce 1/3 cup

Remove from heat

Use 2 TBSP tapioca starch from below whisk into the juice

Return to heat and whisk until thickened

Stir into fruit. Cool

Add remaining sugar tapioca starch and any spices

Fill pie and bake



Weight of the fruit

Sugar 25% weight of the fruit

Tapioca starch 5% weight of the fruit





Bonus question: when you look at the science of what causes apple shrinkage (pectin cells weaken by heat) and what helps to stop it (cells strengthen by an acid), it doesn’t seem butter serves any purpose since it’s not acidic.

 

[J13]

AWESOME rely, Norcal! Thanks so much for all those amazing details. I'm printing this up for when I get around to pie baking....

Resting the dough: again those that advocate rolling out the dough right away do so because of the difficulty of rolling out a dry under hydrated dough. The rock hard dough that to be beat with the rolling pin is also a result of a dry, under hydrated dough. If the dough is properly hydrated, it’s easy to roll it out.

So, the lesson of all these pie threads is: hydrate correctly and most of the problems go away

Blind baking: I don’t like high heat blind baking. I bake at 350°F (170°C). I also don’t like parchment paper. I use the light aluminum foil, not the heavy duty. I crumple it up and then uncrumple it. You have to be careful with it because the light weight aluminum tears easily. I like rice, instead of beans or sugar. I bake it most of the way and then I remove the rice.

I rather like the sugar, but I agree that it'd be quite a mess if the foil tore. And yes, I've had issues with foil sticking as well.

Shrinkage: There’s different ways to do this, the stove top is the traditional way. Heat the apples in a large skillet on the stovetop until just barely tender. Then cool.

I forgot the most important part of that advice which is to spread the cooked apples out on a baking sheet to cool. Otherwise the apples will turn to mush. This has worked pretty well for me, but I don't bake that many apple pies. It certainly solved the problem of undercooked apples which was my usual problem.

I've also been told to use a mix of apples rather than one variety.

NOW, here’s my reality...In the past two years no matter what I do, I cannot stop the apple shrinkage.

I wonder is the problem is with the apples. More and more are being grown to be eaten out of hand (like "sugar bee" way too sweet!). Meaning less acid, and a lot more juice. It's getting harder and harder to find really good, dense, acidic baking apples. Arkansas black are among my fave—super dense, no shrinking there—but if they come into the market at all, they're there then gone in a blink.

I understand why apple orchards want to create new varieties to match the phenomenal success of honeycrisp, but I suspect that means not only less apples for pies, but also that those for pies might be becoming more sweet and prone to shrinking....

Farmers markets do have some good heritage apples, and I'm sure you, like me, search them for your pie apples. But it's still slim pickings. I remember a friend smuggling in apples from Minnesota once...I made the best apple pie I'd ever made with those apples. Unfortunately, CA won't allow us to ship in the best pie apples from the states that grow them.

Bonus question: when you look at the science of what causes apple shrinkage (pectin cells weaken by heat) and what helps to stop it (cells strengthen by an acid), it doesn’t seem butter serves any purpose since it’s not acidic.

Hah! I always knew that dotting-with-butter was pointless...unless its just to add some fat and richness to the filling? I always forget to do it anyway....

 

[Norcalbaker59]

AWESOME rely, Norcal! Thanks so much for all those amazing details. I'm printing this up for when I get around to pie baking....

So, the lesson of all these pie threads is: hydrate correctly and most of the problems go away

I rather like the sugar, but I agree that it'd be quite a mess if the foil tore. And yes, I've had issues with foil sticking as well.

I forgot the most important part of that advice which is to spread the cooked apples out on a baking sheet to cool. Otherwise the apples will turn to mush. This has worked pretty well for me, but I don't bake that many apple pies. It certainly solved the problem of undercooked apples which was my usual problem.

I've also been told to use a mix of apples rather than one variety.

I wonder is the problem is with the apples. More and more are being grown to be eaten out of hand (like "sugar bee" way too sweet!). Meaning less acid, and a lot more juice. It's getting harder and harder to find really good, dense, acidic baking apples. Arkansas black are among my fave—super dense, no shrinking there—but if they come into the market at all, they're there then gone in a blink.

I understand why apple orchards want to create new varieties to match the phenomenal success of honeycrisp, but I suspect that means not only less apples for pies, but also that those for pies might be becoming more sweet and prone to shrinking....

Farmers markets do have some good heritage apples, and I'm sure you, like me, search them for your pie apples. But it's still slim pickings. I remember a friend smuggling in apples from Minnesota once...I made the best apple pie I'd ever made with those apples. Unfortunately, CA won't allow us to ship in the best pie apples from the states that grow them.

Hah! I always knew that dotting-with-butter was pointless...unless its just to add some fat and richness to the filling? I always forget to do it anyway....

OK so I always wondered why we get the same old boring variety of apples in the grocery store. I didn’t realize California was banning import of certain varieties. Because we really do have a boring selection. And yeah I just started recently blending different varieties. Some of them just turned absolute mush.

So your post really got me thinking about dehydration… Just how low can I go in the dough? So I’m making pie dough right now, so I decided to test it. First batch I did at my standard 30%. Second batch I dropped it to 25%. To ensure the water is well distributed, I mixed it in a bowl, created well in the center and poured the water in. I just did a batch at 25% hydration with 10.5% protein and will do a 11.5% protein flour in a few minutes. The 10.5% mixed up a lot drier but, after the folding technique I use to pull the dough together it seems to be holding together well. So we’ll see how it bakes up.

I’m thinking apples are cut in big chunks, so when they cook the give off a lot of steam. Then the steam from the pie adds to causing the apples then to shrink. Because when I bake a lattice pie I don’t have that shrinkage, steam gets to escape. Or when I cook him pies I don’t have that problem, because there’s very little apple in there and the pies are cooked for a much shorter time because they’re so small. So maybe I need to reduce the water in the crust, yes?

Your post has me thinking about apple pie solutions.

 

[J13]

OK so I always wondered why we get the same old boring variety of apples in the grocery store. I didn’t realize California was banning import of certain varieties.

Not certain varieties, all apples from states east of the rockies Unless the orchard is certified. Which is why we get a lot of apples from Washington, and why so many of the apples we do get (or grow) are so boring! Most of them on the uber sweet side. Ironically, one of the best apples, Sweet Tango, which has a lemony finish, is a Minnesota apple variety that is now grown in Washington.

This is from 2011. It seems to still be the rule:

“Apples can be shipped to California, Arizona, Idaho, Oregon and Washington, but only if the fruit comes from an orchard that has been certified by MDA.” Even if the package is not labeled as carrying fruit, trained dogs will alert a biologist who willthen inspect the package.

Searching around, I DO see places that say they CAN ship apples to California (because they're certified). So....

I propose you check some of these places out and see if you can get some really good pie apples shipped to you. Apples like winesap and northern spy. But you might want to hold off till Labor Day. Some of these online apple places don't "open" till then. This place in Michigan opens up August 1st: https://www.aamodtsapplefarm.com They say they ship across the continental U.S...but best to call them and find out if that includes CA. Likewise any others you see offering online apple shipping.

I'm glad to know that we *can* get apples from states east of the rockies...we just have to find ones certified (and willing) to do so I'm certainly going to give this a try sometime this Autumn. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I'm so tired of baking up apple pies that could tastes so much better...if they just had real pie apples.

I just did a batch at 25% hydration with 10.5% protein and will do a 11.5% protein flour in a few minutes. The 10.5% mixed up a lot drier but, after the folding technique I use to pull the dough together it seems to be holding together well. So we’ll see how it bakes up.

I'm eager to know how the results. By the by...I don't think you answered this question:
What's the difference between all-purpose and pastry flour...and is pastry flour really better fo pie crust?

I’m thinking apples are cut in big chunks, so when they cook the give off a lot of steam. Then the steam from the pie adds to causing the apples then to shrink.

That's altogether possible! Especially as big chunks mean they can keep giving off steam for a while—they're "deep" as it were. So how about slicing them so that they're flatter and thinner (but still thick enough to be toothsome and not turn to mush) and can be "layered" as I sometimes see in certain apple pies. More surface area and the steam would evaporate more quickly = less shrinkage? Example in picture below (from "once upon a chef"):

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Not certain varieties, all apples from states east of the rockies Unless the orchard is certified. Which is why we get a lot of apples from Washington, and why so many of the apples we do get (or grow) are so boring! Most of them on the uber sweet side. Ironically, one of the best apples, Sweet Tango, which has a lemony finish, is a Minnesota apple variety that is now grown in Washington.

This is from 2011. It seems to still be the rule:

Searching around, I DO see places that say they CAN ship apples to California (because they're certified). So....

I propose you check some of these places out and see if you can get some really good pie apples shipped to you. Apples like winesap and northern spy. But you might want to hold off till Labor Day. Some of these online apple places don't "open" till then. This place in Michigan opens up August 1st: https://www.aamodtsapplefarm.com They say they ship across the continental U.S...but best to call them and find out if that includes CA. Likewise any others you see offering online apple shipping.

I'm glad to know that we *can* get apples from states east of the rockies...we just have to find ones certified (and willing) to do so I'm certainly going to give this a try sometime this Autumn. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I'm so tired of baking up apple pies that could tastes so much better...if they just had real pie apples.

I'm eager to know how the results. By the by...I don't think you answered this question:
What's the difference between all-purpose and pastry flour...and is pastry flour really better fo pie crust?

That's altogether possible! Especially as big chunks mean they can keep giving off steam for a while—they're "deep" as it were. So how about slicing them so that they're flatter and thinner (but still thick enough to be toothsome and not turn to mush) and can be "layered" as I sometimes see in certain apple pies. More surface area and the steam would evaporate more quickly = less shrinkage? Example in picture below (from Sally's Baking Addiction):

I get why they regulate what gets imported because California’s agricultural industry could get wiped out if some nasty bug gets imported on produce. But it would be nice to get some apple varieties beyond the five boring ones we see Year after year in the stores. I’ll have to check out the sources you posted. Thanks for that.

Yes thinner slices and layering might work as well. I’ll bake an apple pie on Sunday. The pie dough I made today will actually go for savory hand pies and a roasted vegetable tart for Saturday. I have a potluck at my sister’s house. We’re going to be dying cloth. She’s into the fiber arts. She spins, knits, dyes. In my family when we take on a hobby we go all in. My brother became interested in brewing coffee. Now he’s a coffee roaster with investments in a coffee mill and coffee farms in Mexico.

 

[J13]

My brother became interested in brewing coffee. Now he’s a coffee roaster with investments in a coffee mill and coffee farms in Mexico.

Totally off topic...My husband is a coffee connoisseur, familiar with a lot of the coffee people here who go down regularly to South America to pick out the beans they want, who roast and grind everything in house, etc.

I'm sure he'd have a lot to discuss with your brother. I, on the other hand, am a devoted tea drinker.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Totally off topic...My husband is a coffee connoisseur, familiar with a lot of the coffee people here who go down regularly to South America to pick out the beans they want, who roast and grind everything in house, etc.

I'm sure he'd have a lot to discuss with your brother. I, on the other hand, am a devoted tea drinker.

Tell your husband my brother’s coffee farm planted geisha last year. Beans are certified from that mother plant.

My brother actually sent me to SCA barista certification training. Obviously we have complementary skills for business.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

It was actually great that half of the guests at my sisters eco dye event had eaten my pies before, half had never had my pie; So it was great to be able to get reactions from both.

People who eat my pie on a regular basis I find the most interesting, because they are so enthusiastic about my pie. They rave every time, Especially about the crust. They always mention the crust. They never fail to mention the crust.

And those at the party who had never had my pie before also went on and on about the crust. Everyone individually asked if they could take leftover hand pies home with them.

Here’s a how the 25% hydration 10.5% protein pie crust baked in hand pies. Contained 65 g of spinach artichoke cream cheese filling. The crust turned out very nice at 25% hydration .

25% hydration 11.5% protein. Blind bake, I just removed the rice at 35 minutes and returned the cross to the oven to bake another 10 minutes.

I forgot to take a picture of the crust after I
completed blind bake. But here’s the completed tart. You can see this crust shrank quite a bit.

It didn’t shrink down in height

It contracted in diameter

 

[J13]

The crust turned out very nice at 25% hydration ....You can see this crust shrank quite a bit.

So, to sum up, 25% hydration got as enthusiastic a response from the guests as your usual—taste wise, flakiness, and all the rest the same as with 30%. It also worked out fine for the hand pies. BUT when it came to tart shells, it shrank inwardly?

How was it to manage as compared to 30%? Did it feel any different to roll out and such?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

So, to sum up, 25% hydration got as enthusiastic a response from the guests as your usual—taste wise, flakiness, and all the rest the same as with 30%. It also worked out fine for the hand pies. BUT when it came to tart shells, it shrank inwardly?

How was it to manage as compared to 30%? Did it feel any different to roll out and such?

Shrinkage is inevitable, all pie crust, and baked goods for that matter, shrinks because where there is water and high enough heat, there is evaporation, and that causes shrinkage.I just wasn’t expecting that much shrinkage. Look at the photo I took when I removed the rice; that’s about the amount of shrinkage I was expecting.

The shrinkage was on par with the 30% hydration. Given the reduction in water, there should’ve been less shrinkage.

The dough did not retract during rolling, and it was tender and flaky, so I know the dough was not overly worked. Overworked is a contributing factor in shrinkage.

Stretching the dough during panning will also cause shrinking, but the telltale signs of a stretched dough is no visible crease where the sides and the bottom meet, slumping sides, and notice shrinkage in height of the sides. This has none of the signs of a stretched dough.

Normally I roll over the top of tart tin with the rolling pin to level off the pie dough and give the shell a finished look. That also compacts the dough at the top. But I didn’t do it with this shell because I wanted to have a more rustic look. It’s always important to press the pie dough flat against the surface of the tart tin, not just lay it on the surface. So maybe I didn’t press it against the sides well enough.


My family & friends always comment about the flaky crust; It’s just good to know that dropping the water by 5% still produces the same quality of crust. The dough is definitely drier; when I removed it from the fridge I could see a few dry whitish flour blotchy spots on the dough. It rolled out fine, but I noticed the edges cracked here and there as it spread. Some of the telltale signs of a lower hydration were there.
So I’m glad I mixed it in a bowl with a well in the center to make sure the water was well distributed.

I can definitely see the difference in how it handles.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Stella Parks did a Q&A on Reddit Ask Culinary today

I recently noticed her hydration is a whopping 51%. So I asked her if there was any benefit to my increasing hydration to50% her response:


“It really depends on the recipe! I don't suggest arbitrarily jacking up the hydration.


My pie dough uses equal parts butter and flour by weight, which means it can be totally unstructured at lower hydrations due to the tenderizing effects of all that butter. The higher level of hydration ensures my dough is supple, strong, and easy to work with.


Here are some shots of the kind of flake you can get with it: long, well structured layerssimilar to a laminated dough.”

So the take away from responds is butter for tender crust and water for a workable pliable dough. You definitely need water for a crust. There’s no if ands or buts about it.

Link to Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskCulinar...bravetart_senior_editor_at/evm638i/?context=3

 

[J13]

Here are some shots of the kind of flake you can get with it: long, well structured layerssimilar to a laminated dough.”

Those pictures show some pretty amazing pie crust! But what does she mean "it depends on the recipe"? Exactly which recipe would do well with 51% water? And which wouldn't?

I do have her book “Brave Tart” and she has a no-stress pie dough calling for 4oz of water for every 8oz of flour. Also 8oz butter. Is that the same recipe as the old-fashioned pie dough? Supposedly, this makes for a double crust pie...I guess the water/butter amounts help to stretch out such a little amount of flour? Because most double crust pies are 3Cups (that’s how they’re written up) and this is just under 2C (1¾ C).

I haven’t gotten around to making that no-stress crust, but I’m game. I presume you will be trying this 51% as well—probably before me. Could you snap pictures of the dough you get? I wonder if it shrinks less?

Thanks for the link!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Those pictures show some pretty amazing pie crust! But what does she mean "it depends on the recipe"? Exactly which recipe would do well with 51% water? And which wouldn't?

I do have her book “Brave Tart” and she has a no-stress pie dough calling for 4oz of water for every 8oz of flour. Also 8oz butter. Is that the same recipe as the old-fashioned pie dough? Supposedly, this makes for a double crust pie...I guess the water/butter amounts help to stretch out such a little amount of flour? Because most double crust pies are 3Cups (that’s how they’re written up) and this is just under 2C (1¾ C).

I haven’t gotten around to making that no-stress crust, but I’m game. I presume you will be trying this 51% as well—probably before me. Could you snap pictures of the dough you get? I wonder if it shrinks less?

Thanks for the link!

It took me a minute to figure it out...


Stella Parks pie dough ratios:

• Flour 100%
• Unsalted butter 100%
• Icewater 51%
• Salt 1.7%
• Sugar 6%

Classic puff pastry ratio:

• 100% flour
• 1.5% salt
• 100% unsalted butter
• 50% water

Now look at typical pie crust below. This is from Baking Bites. I added the equivalent metric weight next to the ingredient since it’s in volume measurement.

• 3 cups all purpose flour (360g - 420g )
• 1 cup butter, cold and cut into chunks (226g)
• 2 tbsp sugar
• 1 tsp salt
• 6-8 tbsp cold water (72g - 96g)

Estimated Ratios of Baking Bites (my conversions)

• Flour 100%
• Butter 63% (54%)
• Water 20% (23%)

The Baking Bites recipe is very low fat and low hydration compared to puff pastry. Low fat content means it’s going to be a tough crust. Low water means it’s going dry and crumbly.


So when Stella says it depends on the recipe she’s talking about the flour to butter ratio. With a recipe like a Baking bite you can’t just throw in 50% water. You can’t even throw in 30% water, the butter content is too low.


The reason is the fat (butter) interferes with the bond between the gluten and the starch in the flour. Fat actually shortens the bond between the flour and the water, which is why piecrust is referred to as shortened. Some people mistakenly claim pie dough is “shortened” because it was common to use shortening in pie dough. It’s not the use of shortening itself rather, it’s fat shortens the bond between the flour and water.


That shortened bond keeps the water from over developing gluten. Which in turn keeps the crust tender. So if there is a low butter content, that bond isn’t shortened and water in fact makes a tough crust.


My pie dough is at 70% fat can handle 30% water. But it may not be able to take on 50%; that’s what Stella was telling me when she said it depends on the recipe.


So I made her pie dough. I’ll bake it up tomorrow and see how it turns out. Interesting really to use the ratios for puff pastry in pie dough.


Here’s Stella Parks recipe

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/06/old-fashioned-flaky-pie-dough-recipe.html

 

[J13]

So. She doesn't rest her dough before rolling it out. Unless, of course, the dough is too sticky-warm and needs to firm up first.

And here's another question: she uses only butter...does it matter? I'm getting back to our discussion on fats. Could her pie dough be made substituting any fat for the butter? Assuming, of course, that all the percentages stay the same. Lard? Oil? Duck fat? Shortening? Will they all "shorten" the crust the same way?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

So. She doesn't rest her dough before rolling it out. Unless, of course, the dough is too sticky-warm and needs to firm up first.

And here's another question: she uses only butter...does it matter? I'm getting back to our discussion on fats. Could her pie dough be made substituting any fat for the butter? Assuming, of course, that all the percentages stay the same. Lard? Oil? Duck fat? Shortening? Will they all "shorten" the crust the same way?

Yes she rolls right away.

Oh yes the fat matters. At 100% fat, you really don’t want to bite into a mouthful of crisco. Taste is a factor. But shortening also coats the inside of the mouth and tongue. Have you ever greased a pan with shortening? The reason people are fooled into thinking cakes and icing made with shortening are moist, is that same greasy coating the pan also coats your mouth and tongue when shortening is added to batters, icings, and doughs. The higher the percentage of shortening in your dough, the more that greasy coating is going be obvious.

With oil it will end up with a crispy cracker like texture. Oil change is the texture completely.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

So I baked the crust. It does bake up nice. It’s very flaky. It’s it’s very much like mine. The thing I didn’t like is it’s noticeably greasy. When you touch the crust the grease comes off onto your fingers.

With 100% butter, and not laminating the dough it’s going to be greasy there’s no getting around it.

I think I’ll experiment with butter and hydration levels.

She uses the classic puff pastry at 100% butter and 100% hydration.

My current crust is 70% butter and 30% hydration.

I’m going to try 80% butter and 40% hydration.

If there’s no appreciable improvement at 80/40 then I’ll stick with my 70/30.

 

[J13]

Thanks fo the report.You’re the Baking Forums’ reporter on the scene

So I baked the crust. It does bake up nice. It’s very flaky. It’s it’s very much like mine. The thing I didn’t like is it’s noticeably greasy. When you touch the crust the grease comes off onto your fingers.

With 100% butter, and not laminating the dough it’s going to be greasy there’s no getting around it.

I suppose that’s what forks are for. Outside of pie-eating contests and hand pies, most people do eat them with a fork.

But that doesn’t solve the problem. Is it time for some Crisco yet? Or maybe duck fat? If it’s not all butter, will it still be greasy?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thanks fo the report.You’re the Baking Forums’ reporter on the scene

I suppose that’s what forks are for. Outside of pie-eating contests and hand pies, most people do eat them with a fork.

But that doesn’t solve the problem. Is it time for some Crisco yet? Or maybe duck fat? If it’s not all butter, will it still be greasy?

Regardless of the fat used, it will be greasy. There’s a saturation point for flour to fat. It’s not a matter of touching the fat. But if I can touch the fat, that’s an indication of being unpalatable. It’s like greasy soggy french fries.

When you laminate dough the butter is wrapped in the dough. In fact they call it a better lock. Then with each fold and turn the butter gets rolled out into a thinner layer, but still locked in the dough. So the pastry isn’t greasy. But in pie dough the butter is cut into the dough. So it’s not contained between sheets of dough. So the grease leaks out if there’s too much.

The typical pie crust is about 50% to 60% butter which is not enough to really shorten the flour and water bond. I use 70% butter, enough to shortened the flour, but not so much it’s greasy.

My sister’s neighbor has two peach trees that produce a mind-boggling number of peaches every year. This year she had to brace the branches because the tree was laden with fruit. So my sister messaged me and the partner of her ex to ask If we wanted to come over to pick peaches and bake pies on Saturday. So we’re both all in for baking pies this weekend.

 

[J13]

My sister’s neighbor has two peach trees that produce a mind-boggling number of peaches every year. This year she had to brace the branches because the tree was laden with fruit. So my sister messaged me and the partner of her ex to ask If we wanted to come over to pick peaches and bake pies on Saturday. So we’re both all in for baking pies this weekend.

I'm envious (love peaches). I hope you're also going to make peach preserves?