Folds in bread

[Cruimh]

been making yeast breads for several years. Taste, crumb etc fine . I machine knead, rise, punch down, fold to shape and use a lightly oiled bread tin. My problem is that I often find that when the dough is shaped the "folds" don't meld and persist into the cooked bread. Awkward for slicing and making sandwiches. Not sure what is wrong. I have tried wetter dough, using a firmer dough, increasing the oil and decreasing the oil. Tried warm rising and cool rising, Still happening. Any tips or thoughts? Picture is from a loaf that was 15% strong wholemeal and 85% strong white.

Thanks for looking

 

[chassis]

What is your formula (recipe)? Please describe the shaping procedure.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

been making yeast breads for several years. Taste, crumb etc fine . I machine knead, rise, punch down, fold to shape and use a lightly oiled bread tin. My problem is that I often find that when the dough is shaped the "folds" don't meld and persist into the cooked bread. Awkward for slicing and making sandwiches. Not sure what is wrong. I have tried wetter dough, using a firmer dough, increasing the oil and decreasing the oil. Tried warm rising and cool rising, Still happening. Any tips or thoughts? Picture is from a loaf that was 15% strong wholemeal and 85% strong white.

Thanks for looking

it’s not the oil. Do you have a shaping problem caused by adding flour at wrong time in wrong places. The dry flour acts as a barrier preventing the dough to stick.

19:30 shaping for tin begins. But I would recommend you view the entire video because contains some fundamental information you could you.

A full video on shaping for a tin

https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos/122?format=amp


Even though you are kneading the dough by machine, you need to understand the correct way to knead. Additional flour is never added to the work surface when kneading. Reason is the dough will absorb the flour from the countertop. All the flour absorbed from counter will then completely change (lower) the hydration level in the dough. You can lower the hydration level substantially depending on how much flour you use to knead.

This will lead to problems with rise and baking.

 

[Cruimh]

What is your formula (recipe)? Please describe the shaping procedure.

Seems to happen regardless of formula - sourdough and plain. I start with 60% hydration but I increase it is I am adding wholemeal to the mixture. My basic mix would be around this - 500 gr strong white flour, 300 ml fluid, 15 gr sugar, 15 ml oil, 8 gr salt. Depending on mood I use water, milk, pasta water or rice water..

 

[Cruimh]

it’s not the oil. Do you have a shaping problem caused by adding flour at wrong time in wrong places. The dry flour acts as a barrier preventing the dough to stick.

19:30 shaping for tin begins. But I would recommend you view the entire video because contains some fundamental information you could you.

A full video on shaping for a tin

https://www.bakewithjack.co.uk/videos/122?format=amp


Even though you are kneading the dough by machine, you need to understand the correct way to knead. Additional flour is never added to the work surface when kneading. Reason is the dough will absorb the flour from the countertop. All the flour absorbed from counter will then completely change (lower) the hydration level in the dough. You can lower the hydration level substantially depending on how much flour you use to knead.

This will lead to problems with rise and baking.

Sounds like the flour addition at kneading may be my problem - thank you!

 

[chassis]

Flour when kneading and low hydration as you indicated, plus seam side not at the bottom can all create the results in the photo in the original post.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Sounds like the flour addition at kneading may be my problem - thank you!

Even with high hydration dough, when folds and turns are used because the dough is too soft to knead, you have to be very careful in adding as little flour as possible in shaping. And flour again is never added to work surface or sticky side of dough.

The little or no bench flour (flour on the work surface) applies to all dough work. It doesn’t matter if you’re making bread, pie crest, puff pastry, croissants.

When I was learning to make croissants the chef would not even give us bench flour. Learning proper technique from the beginning is important because it develops your skill level and produces the best product.

 

[Cruimh]

It is amazing how varied the advice in from various experts on You tube - quite a few show them flouring the dough at every stage, others insist that there should be no more than 2 minutes at no 2 with dough hook including kitchenaid - yet others say a minimum of 10 minutes with dough hook

 

[Norcalbaker59]

It is amazing how varied the advice in from various experts on You tube - quite a few show them flouring the dough at every stage, others insist that there should be no more than 2 minutes at no 2 with dough hook including kitchenaid - yet others say a minimum of 10 minutes with dough hook

Those who flour the surface have no professional training or they just don’t know how to handle dough. There is no culinary school with a legitimate pastry arts program that teaches flouring the surface. It’s a fundamental skill based in baking science knowledge. It has to do with maintaining the ratios (the formula); not producing additional gluten on the surface; drying out the dough; creating dry, tough chewy product as a result on working in additional flour after mixing. All these adverse characteristics develop when additional flour is added during kneading, shaping, rolling, handling.

The vast majority of home bakers don’t know the planetary mixer is not used to mix doughs. A spiral mixer is the correct mixer for dough.

A planetary mixer is for batters, icings, meringues etc.

The planetary mixer actually destroys dough. The dough gets wrapped around that’s so called dough hook; it get dragged against the inside of the bowl; it never gets turned, so not kneaded; the drag causes friction; friction causes heat; heat destroys the yeast.

This is a spiral dough mixer. These are for the home market.

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[Mona]

It sounds like the folds in your bread might be due to uneven shaping or insufficient kneading. Try kneading the dough a bit longer to develop the gluten fully and make sure you shape it tightly and evenly. Also, ensure your oven is at the right temperature and that you’re not using too much oil in the bread tin. Since you’re using a mix of wholemeal and white flour, be aware that wholemeal can make the dough denser, so adjust your liquid amounts if needed.

 

[retired baker]

the problem shown is a direct result of not placing the seam on the bottom.