Brief descriptions of cake

[Norcalbaker59]

I’ve gotten a number of questions about cake. I thought it would be simpler to just write a description on the two classifications. This obviously doesn’t cover everything about cake, but will clarify what I’ve been asked about the differences about sponge and butter cakes; what defines a sponge cake versus a butter cake; what is a biscuit, and how a biscuit is different from a sponge; does it really matter if you heat the eggs for genoise; and the difference between a chiffon and “regular cake.”

I was also asked for a Japonaise recipe. I have a pretty extensive collection of cake formulas from the top European pastry chefs dating back some 23 years. There’s version after version of biscuits. Only one is called a Japonaise, but in truth its just dacquoise by another name. There’s really no evidence of Japonaise being a biscuit in its own right. So I would recommend using a dacquoise recipe, almond or hazelnut baker’s choice.

I have to post this in parts since there is a character limit on posts.

TWO MAJOR CATEGORIES:

• Creamed cake batters
• Whipped (aka Foam) cake batters

CREAMED CAKE BATTERS

Leavened with mechanical and chemical leavening
High fat content: 65% - 100% fat to flour ratio

Creaming method and high fat content creates:

• Richer flavor
• Moister crumb
• Low aeration batter
• Dense tighter crumb
• Lower rise

Examples of Creamed Cakes:

• Yellow cake (contains whole eggs)
• White cake (egg whites only)
• Pound cake
• Fruitcake

The two common cakes in US & UK: Butter & Victoria Sponge
The ratios of egg, fat, sugar to flour vary significantly between these two types of cakes. The leaner butter cake is the preferred layer cake for event cakes since the lower fat content balances better with icings and fillings.


BUTTER CAKE

• 40% egg to flour ratio
• 65% fat to flour ratio
• Less egg and fat than the Victoria Sponge cake
• Butter cake is much lighter
• Butter cake not as rich

Low fat content cake is filled and iced; common icings:

• Butter/retail shortening and confectioner’s sugar icing
• High ratio shortening and confectioner’s sugar icing
• Cream cheese icing
• Italian or Swiss meringue buttercream

VICTORIA SPONGE

• The Victoria Sponge is a pound cake, (not a sponge cake see note below*)
• 100% egg to flour ratio
• 100% fat to flour ratio
• 100% sugar to flour ratio
• Rich cake with soft crumb
• High fat content cake does not need icing
• The traditional filling for the Victoria sponge is raspberry jam

Mechanical Leavening:

Creaming fat and sugar is a physical form of leavening. Sugar crystals are forced through the solid fat, cutting slits and forcing some air into the openings. When the chemical leavening (baking powder and/or baking soda) is activated the CO2 bubbles are trapped in the cuts created by the sugar crystals and expand the holes.


When using butter, the temperature of the butter during creaming is critical. If the butter is too warm it will lose its plasticity; as the CO2 bubbles fill the holes the butter will collapse instead of expanding. To retain the plasticity of the butter, it is important the finished batter does not exceed 68°F (20°C); start with butter at 65°F (18°C). Overall creamed cakes are pretty straight foreword; once the baker learns the fundamentals about butter temperature, finished batter temperature, and understanding the role of the ingredients in baking.

Fats Used in Creamed Cake Batters:

• Butter: start with 65°F (18°C) butter and sugar beaten for approx. 5 minutes
• Retail Shortening: temperature is not an issue due to the 117°F (47°C) higher melting point and plasticity of shortening
• High Ratio Shortening**: High ratio shortening differs from retail shortening in that all traces of moisture are removed; it is also formulated with special emulsifiers. These shortenings are manufactured specifically for the baking industry, and are not sold in retail stores.

Other Ingredients:

• Eggs are NOT aerated in a creamed batter; so they do not provide leavening; eggs are emulsified into the beaten butter to create an emulsion
• Liquids and dry ingredients are alternately mixed into the emulsion
• Creamed batters produce low aeration batters compared to foam batters

WHIPPED BATTER CAKES (FOAM)
Whipped Batter Cakes

• High egg to flour ratio
• High sugar to flour ratio
• Low 0% - 50% fat to flour ratio
• Leavened with whipped eggs
• No chemical leavening (exception is the American chiffon cake)

- There are two processes for sponge cake: hot process and cold process
- When the separated egg method is used, the sponge cake is not a sponge. It becomes a biscuit.
- There are two methods for the separated egg method.

Whipped egg method and low fat content creates:

• Light airy texture
• High rise
• High aeration batter
• Drier cake

Formulas use a mix of flour and nut meal
Soaking syrups used to moisten cakes create a wide variety of flavors
Batters are molded, spread in frames, and piped to create a wide variety of shapes

Examples of Whipped Cakes:

• Genoise cake (hot process; a sponge)
• Angel food cake (contains egg whites only)
• Savoy (not a sponge, but a biscuit)
• Chiffon (a hybrid of a biscuit)
• Roulades

Whipped batter cakes are leavened by either whole whipped eggs or whipped egg whites. The whole whipped eggs may be whipped in a hot or cold process.



Eggs:

Yolks: expand to 4x original volume

Less foaming power than whites

• 33% fat
• 48% water
• 17% protein

Factors in yolk that inhibit foaming

• Less surface tension
• more emulsifying lipids
• more proteins that do not unfurl are stabilizing
• less water

to whip, to 4x volume, heat with liquid and continuously whisk



Albumen (Egg white): expand 8x original volume

• 0% fat
• 88% water
• 11% protein

Lower protein and high water content in egg white makes the protein less stable. High water content allows whisk to easily drag across surface creating force to easily unfurl proteins.

Whole eggs: expand 6x original volume

• 11% fat
• 74% water
• 13% protein

Ribbon Stage Eggs:
Whole eggs beaten with sugar until triple in volume and when the beater is lifted out, the egg will flow off the beaters in a flat ribbon like pattern and sit on the egg mixture for about 5 seconds before dissolving into the bowl.

To achieve ribbon stage egg, the eggs and sugar must be heated to 122°F (50°C) then whipped, or room temperature eggs, 70°F (20°C) eggs and sugar are beaten for approximately 8 - 10 minutes until the eggs triple in volume. It is not for the impatience.

GENOISE: HOT PROCESS SPONGE MADE WITH WHOLE EGGS 122°F (50°C).
General Ratios:

• Egg 150% - 200%
• Sugar 100% - 115%
• Flour/starch 100%
• Fat 20% - 40% clarified butter

Genoise is a sponge cake. What distinguishes a sponge from the French biscuit is the eggs are whipped whole. The genoise also contains clarified butter. Genoise is by nature a dry cake. The cake is always flavored with a soaking syrup that also adds moisture. Pastry chefs use fine liqueurs or make a cordial from freshly harvested ingredients like elderflower blooms or verbena leaves. You can bake a perfect genoise, then ruin it with a poor quality soaking syrup. So it is important to use quality ingredients in syrups.

• Whole eggs continuously whisked over a Bain Marie
• The mixture is heated to 122°F (50°C)
• Egg mixture is transferred to a stand mixer bowl fitted with a whisk attachment
• Eggs mixture whipped to cool and increase the volume
• Beaten to the ribbon stage
• A small amount of egg mixture is portioned out, and the cooled clarified butter is blended into the reserved egg mixture
• Dry ingredients are then folded into egg mixture in the mixer bowl in several additions
• Then the reserved egg mixture with the clarified butter is added to the batter

The higher protein in egg yolk makes it more stable than the egg white; heat and agitation encourages denaturation of the protein and makes a more stable egg foam. That in turn creates a stronger cake structure.


SPONGE COLD WHOLE EGG PROCESS WHOLE EGG 70°F (20°C)
In the cold whole egg process the same mixing method as the hot whole egg process is used except the eggs are at 70°F (20°C). The sponge cake produced from a cold whole egg process is not as sturdy as a hot process method, so should not be used in any elaborate stacked cake designs. Cold whole egg process cakes are commonly used for single layer cakes.


BISCUIT: (pronounced biskui not like the American breakfast biscuit). A biscuit is distinguished from a sponge by the separated egg mixing method. Where the whole egg is whipped in a sponge, in a biscuit, the eggs are separated and whipped separately. Two methods are used for biscuit.

General Ratios

• Egg 150% - 220%
• Sugar 100% - 115%
• Flour/starch 100% or Flour 50% & Nut Meal 50%
• Fat 0% - 50%^

METHOD 1:

• Sugar is divided;
• Eggs are separated
• Half sugar and yolk are beaten
• Remaining sugar is whipped in egg whites to medium stiff peaks
• The whipped eggs and dry ingredients are alternately folded into sweetened yolks

METHOD 2:

• Eggs are separated.
• Egg whites are whipped into a meringue with the sugar.
• Yolks are folded into the meringue.
• Dry ingredients are sifted over the whipped eggs and folded in.

Biscuit batter is used in a variety of desserts. Changes are made to the base depending on the application. These are some of the biscuits and some typical ratios. Ratios will vary by pastry chef.



Joconde: (sha-conde): a denser biscuit used in desserts like opera cake, entremet. A joconde biscuit is distinguished by the base of sugar and nut meal in the batter. Joconde (also spelled jaconde) can also be made with other nut flours. It’s spread on a sheet pan and baked in a thin sheet. The whipped batter gives the cake a light texture, but it is sturdy enough for entremets, flexible enough to use as in a roulade, and it absorbs soaking syrups well.

1:1 almond flour to confectioner’s sugar or granulated sugar (tant pour tant)
Dacquoise: a lighter version of a joconde, it is made with almonds or hazelnuts and egg whites only, no yolks.



Savoy: the modern version is made with flour and potato flour (not potato starch). Whipping the egg whites separately into stiff peaks, creates a light airy texture, while the egg yolk and potato flour give the cake a softness. Traditionally baked in a decorative mold, flavored with an abundant of vanilla bean (Pierre Herme uses 3 vanilla beans in an 8” cake!) and served with flavored chantilly cream and fresh berries, its lightness and simplicity makes it the perfect dessert to serve any time of year.

• 194% Egg
• 138% Sugar
• 100% Flour/starch (50% flour/50% potato flour)

• Cuillère: The lightest of the batters, it has a high ratio of egg and sugar to flour, making is airy very fluid. This batter is used for ladyfingers.
• 218% Egg yolk
• 163% Egg whites
• 154% Sugar
• 100% Flour/starch

Other Foam Cake

Chiffon:
Type of biscuit with two differences: 1) contains a neutral oil 50%; 2) low ratio of egg to flour at 35% is lower than a traditional biscuit.

• Eggs separated, some sugar set aside
• Egg whites and smaller portion of sugar whipped stiff peaks
• Yolks, liquids combined
• Dry ingredients sifted
• Slurry made by combining wet and dry ingredients
• Slurry is tempered with meringue; then remaining meringue folded into slurry in two or three additions

Angel Food Cake: is a whipped batter cake that contains no added fat.

• Eggs Whites only 280% - 350%
• Cake Flour 100%
• Sugar 260%
• Fat 0%

Sacher Torte:

• A hybrid creamed and whipped batter
• Butter and sugar is creamed
• Egg yolk and chocolate is blended into the butter
• Egg whites and sugar are whipped to stiff peaks
• 1/3 whipped eggs folded into creamed butter
• Remaining whipped egg whites and flour alternately fold into the butter and egg yolk mixture

In summary:

• A sponge cake is a cake leavened with whole whipped eggs, no chemical leavening. It contains little to no fat. Victoria sponge is not a sponge cake since it is not leavened with whole whipped eggs, and most contain chemical leavening.
• A biscuit is a cake leavened with whipped eggs that have been separated, and no chemical leavening.
• The American chiffon cake is a type of of biscuit with two significant changes: a very low ratio of egg to flour at 35%; addition of vegetable oil.
• Creamed cake is a cake leavened with mechanical leavening (Creaming solid fat and sugar) and chemical Leavening (baking powder and/or baking soda)

*Why a Victoria Sponge is not a sponge: the original Victoria Sponge did not contain chemical leavening since it wasn’t on the market when the cake was created. People just called it a sponge. But the way we classify cake now is by mixing method and chemical leavening. In the creaming method, the butter is aerated. In the whipped egg method, the egg is aerated. The batter for a Victoria Sponge is made using creamed butter and chemical leavening. No whipped egg is used in the batter. So the cake batter is not a sponge batter.



** Retail shortening contains some moisture. The moisture has an adverse effect on the finished product of icings and the goods as water molecules will readily bind to other molecules, such as sugar molecule.

The industry produces moisture free shortening specifically for the baking industry. These emulsified shortenings are more commonly referred to as High Ratio Shortening.


Prior to the full ban of trans fats in 2018 high ratio emulsified shortenings were formulated with mono- and diglycerides, which typically contained:

• 50% monoglyceride
• 40% diglyceride
• 10% triglyceride.

To be in compliance with FDA compliance on trans fats, the industry switched to distilled monoglycerides in emulsified shortening

• 90% distilled monoglyceride
• less than 10% diglyceride.

The resulting products are in compliance with FDA regulations, but the performance of these shortenings are inferior to the original formulas. I am not a user of shortenings, so it does not effect me. But the ban has had a affect on the industry. Hopefully it will force bakers to rethink what they put in their products.

 

[doughytard]

What percentage of liquid and leavening do you add to your butter cakes?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

What percentage of liquid and leavening do you add to your butter cakes?

It varies on the cake. I may use 50% in a bundt cake and 90% in a white cake. There’s a wide range of percentage that can be used even in butter cakes.

 

[doughytard]

It varies on the cake. I may use 50% in a bundt cake and 90% in a white cake. There’s a wide range of percentage that can be used even in butter cakes.

Im looking for a good formula for a Yellow Butter cake that I can stack for a birthday. What would you recommend?

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Im looking for a good formula for a Yellow Butter cake that I can stack for a birthday. What would you recommend?

I don’t make yellow cake often, just a bundts. But I have couple recipes I got from a friend that I will DM to you.

 

[Anna Spainhour]

I don’t make yellow cake often, just a bundts. But I have couple recipes I got from a friend that I will DM to you.

Hey. Will it be possible to get yellow cake recipe from you? Thanks anna.

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hey. Will it be possible to get yellow cake recipe from you? Thanks anna.

I may post a recipe at a later date.

 

[Anna Spainhour]

I may post a recipe at a later date.

Thanks.

 

[SHA]

Hopefully someone can explain what went wrong with my chiffon cake but after folding in the egg whites and baking the cake, I had areas in the cake that were white and rubbery in texture (I can't remember but i think I used the Cook's Illustrated recipe).

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hopefully someone can explain what went wrong with my chiffon cake but after folding in the egg whites and baking the cake, I had areas in the cake that were white and rubbery in texture (I can't remember but i think I used the Cook's Illustrated recipe).

Not knowing the recipe it’s hard to say. But streaks of white and rubbery texture indicates the egg whites were not properly whipped and folded in.

 

[anneh]

What an amazing and comprehensive rundown-thank you!

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hi thanks a lot for explaining it in such a brief way..

You’re welcome

 

[TheFrenchPatissier]

I have to say - I reference this post a lot of times whenever I'm thinking about cake. Admittedly, my experience in cakes is low - but this post helps demystify a lot of the biscuit/jaconde/dacquoise and tons of variations of such I see in recipes. I do wonder - there seems to be a professional baking book by Wayne Gisslen - which mentions rules for cakes (creamed cakes and sponge). It would seem there's rules like "the weight of the eggs should equal that of the sugar" and all this stuff or "the combined weight of the milk and any liquid shouldn't be more than the weight of the X"

I would like to make more cakes - but I'm bogged down by theory and the "should" and "should nots" I see. I tend to not follow recipes unless I usually understand the bones of the recipe or why it is a certain way it is. For cakes - it seems it eludes me. Another confusing aspect of it is - I want to use Hi-Ratio cake shortening - for which not much documentation seems to exist. I may have to trial and error but as I understand it the Sugar:Flour should be 120% to 100%... and I assume I can add more liquid in the same fashion...but definitely worried as not many recipes out there exist.

My contact at a certain baking company hooked me up with tons of hi-ratio shortening which is unusual but I'd like to get more practice in with it.

Also for butter cake - you forgot the mention of sugar:flour ratio. Not sure if it matters but that did throw me off slightly

 

[retired baker]

I have to say - I reference this post a lot of times whenever I'm thinking about cake. Admittedly, my experience in cakes is low - but this post helps demystify a lot of the biscuit/jaconde/dacquoise and tons of variations of such I see in recipes. I do wonder - there seems to be a professional baking book by Wayne Gisslen - which mentions rules for cakes (creamed cakes and sponge). It would seem there's rules like "the weight of the eggs should equal that of the sugar" and all this stuff or "the combined weight of the milk and any liquid shouldn't be more than the weight of the X"

I would like to make more cakes - but I'm bogged down by theory and the "should" and "should nots" I see. I tend to not follow recipes unless I usually understand the bones of the recipe or why it is a certain way it is. For cakes - it seems it eludes me. Another confusing aspect of it is - I want to use Hi-Ratio cake shortening - for which not much documentation seems to exist. I may have to trial and error but as I understand it the Sugar:Flour should be 120% to 100%... and I assume I can add more liquid in the same fashion...but definitely worried as not many recipes out there exist.

My contact at a certain baking company hooked me up with tons of hi-ratio shortening which is unusual but I'd like to get more practice in with it.

Also for butter cake - you forgot the mention of sugar:flour ratio. Not sure if it matters but that did throw me off slightly

Hi ratio is well documented in professional baking books ,
but not many bakers use hi ratio these days, it makes a moist cheap cake.

I saw a lot of bakeries switch to cake mix. Even hotels are using it .
The attraction is the labor cost is next to nothing and is super fast to throw together.

In emergency mode you can put 2x 3lb scoops of the base in a bowl, stir in cold water to the desired thickness, no need to measure if you're familiar with it , tray it up and throw it in the oven, start to finish you get 2 full sheetpans of white cake in 35 minutes. No cracking eggs or measuring/sifting or folding anything.
Emergency mode in a hotel is 3 hours before the wedding a waiter drops the cake, you better be able to get one done.

biscuit/jaconde/dacquoise are all vastly superior to hi ration cake. Thats what I would bake, use the shortening to fry donuts or something.

Domenic dermo "modern pastry chef" has lot of hi ratio formulas, the book came out when hi-ratio was new to kitchens.

Sorry! Something went wrong!

 

[TheFrenchPatissier]

Hi ratio is well documented in professional baking books ,
but not many bakers use hi ratio these days, it makes a moist cheap cake.

I saw a lot of bakeries switch to cake mix. Even hotels are using it .
The attraction is the labor cost is next to nothing and is super fast to throw together.

In emergency mode you can put 2x 3lb scoops of the base in a bowl, stir in cold water to the desired thickness, no need to measure if you're familiar with it , tray it up and throw it in the oven, start to finish you get 2 full sheetpans of white cake in 35 minutes. No cracking eggs or measuring/sifting or folding anything.
Emergency mode in a hotel is 3 hours before the wedding a waiter drops the cake, you better be able to get one done.

biscuit/jaconde/dacquoise are all vastly superior to hi ration cake. Thats what I would bake, use the shortening to fry donuts or something.

Domenic dermo "modern pastry chef" has lot of hi ratio formulas, the book came out when hi-ratio was new to kitchens.

Sorry! Something went wrong!

Thank you will check it out. Personally aiming to get better with cakes (specifically creamed ones - so biscuits is a no-go for me). Also, I can't fry the shortening I have - they specifically state to not use it for frying.

Interestingly enough according to this post butter cakes/creamed cakes are usually 65-100% fat:flour and 40% egg:flour. I do wonder about sugar:flour. Coming across some chocolate cake moist recipes that seem to have sugar and liquid in excess of 100% flour....but they don't use hi-ratio shortening (sugar in excess of 100%)....so kinda confused about that. What would they classify as? Also they seem to break the rules by Gisslen....

The BEST Moist Chocolate Cake Recipe!

This is the Best Chocolate Cake recipe! Moist homemade chocolate cake made completely from scratch. So good restaurants have asked me to make it for them!

www.lifeloveandsugar.com

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Thank you will check it out. Personally aiming to get better with cakes (specifically creamed ones - so biscuits is a no-go for me). Also, I can't fry the shortening I have - they specifically state to not use it for frying.

Interestingly enough according to this post butter cakes/creamed cakes are usually 65-100% fat:flour and 40% egg:flour. I do wonder about sugar:flour. Coming across some chocolate cake moist recipes that seem to have sugar and liquid in excess of 100% flour....but they don't use hi-ratio shortening (sugar in excess of 100%)....so kinda confused about that. What would they classify as? Also they seem to break the rules by Gisslen....

The BEST Moist Chocolate Cake Recipe!

This is the Best Chocolate Cake recipe! Moist homemade chocolate cake made completely from scratch. So good restaurants have asked me to make it for them!

www.lifeloveandsugar.com

When cake ratios are out of standard for the type of cake, you end up with inferior cake.

Example, a butter cake with too much sugar to flour will produce a weak cake. It's easy to identify a cake with too much sugar as the sides will slump.

This cake was posted on a very popular baking blog. If used in a stacked tier cake, this cake is at risk of collapse. Sugar is a tenderizer and it's hygroscopic (pull water from its environment). Too much sugar makes a weak structure out of the oven. Then as the cake sits and pulls in water, it further weakens the cake.

Understanding role of ingredients in baking and how ratios effect texture, taste, and structure helps you determine how to bake and use cake. A chiffon cake with a high liquid content is so weak it will collapse in baking. It requires a tube pan or a heating core to act as a center tube to stabilize it as it bakes.

This is a chiffon cake baked as a layer cake. The heating core is there to stabilize it. this cake cannot be used in a stacked tier cake like a wedding cake as it is too fragile. At most, two cake layers can be torted, filled and stacked into a single layer.

Regarding high ratio shortening…in the US a ban on partially hydrogenated oil (PHOs) went into effect January 2020 to due to its detrimental health effects, especially on children. High ratio shortening was pure PHOs. The refomulated high ratio shortening does not perform anything like the original PHO. So the finished product with the reformulated high ratio shortening is significantly inferior to the PHO products.


High ratio shortening products have always been used for cheap, low quality products since it's cheaper than butter and low saturated fat oils.

If you are intent on using it for cake batter, the process for high ratio cakes is the two stage mixing process.

 

[retired baker]

Thank you will check it out. Personally aiming to get better with cakes (specifically creamed ones - so biscuits is a no-go for me). Also, I can't fry the shortening I have - they specifically state to not use it for frying.

Interestingly enough according to this post butter cakes/creamed cakes are usually 65-100% fat:flour and 40% egg:flour. I do wonder about sugar:flour. Coming across some chocolate cake moist recipes that seem to have sugar and liquid in excess of 100% flour....but they don't use hi-ratio shortening (sugar in excess of 100%)....so kinda confused about that. What would they classify as? Also they seem to break the rules by Gisslen....

The BEST Moist Chocolate Cake Recipe!

This is the Best Chocolate Cake recipe! Moist homemade chocolate cake made completely from scratch. So good restaurants have asked me to make it for them!

www.lifeloveandsugar.com

rules schmules,follow a recipe for the cake, if YOU like it thats what counts.

 

[TheFrenchPatissier]

When cake ratios are out of standard for the type of cake, you end up with inferior cake.

Example, a butter cake with too much sugar to flour will produce a weak cake. It's easy to identify a cake with too much sugar as the sides will slump.

This cake was posted on a very popular baking blog. If used in a stacked tier cake, this cake is at risk of collapse. Sugar is a tenderizer and it's hygroscopic (pull water from its environment). Too much sugar makes a weak structure out of the oven. Then as the cake sits and pulls in water, it further weakens the cake.



View attachment 4838


Understanding role of ingredients in baking and how ratios effect texture, taste, and structure helps you determine how to bake and use cake. A chiffon cake with a high liquid content is so weak it will collapse in baking. It requires a tube pan or a heating core to act as a center tube to stabilize it as it bakes.

This is a chiffon cake baked as a layer cake. The heating core is there to stabilize it. this cake cannot be used in a stacked tier cake like a wedding cake as it is too fragile. At most, two cake layers can be torted, filled and stacked into a single layer.
View attachment 4839

Regarding high ratio shortening…in the US a ban on partially hydrogenated oil (PHOs) went into effect January 2020 to due to its detrimental health effects, especially on children. High ratio shortening was pure PHOs. The refomulated high ratio shortening does not perform anything like the original PHO. So the finished product with the reformulated high ratio shortening is significantly inferior to the PHO products.


High ratio shortening products have always been used for cheap, low quality products since it's cheaper than butter and low saturated fat oils.

If you are intent on using it for cake batter, the process for high ratio cakes is the two stage mixing process.

Hi Norcal

Great to hear from you. I actually finally bought the baking strips because of reading some of your posts. I must say my understanding of structure and ratios of ingredients isn't well developed despite a lot of reading. Would you say Gisslens rules are accurate in terms of properly formulated cake layers?

I would love to know more about improper ratio results like the picture you shared about high sugar. Very interesting read.

Is two stage just another way for saying "reverse creaming" ? Truth be told because I have an excess of cake hi ratio shortening..Id like to use it and experiment with it. But realistically I wonder what happens if someone doesn't use higher ratio of liquid and sugar with hi ratio shortening...if it would result in an improper cake also..

 

[Norcalbaker59]

Hi Norcal

Great to hear from you. I actually finally bought the baking strips because of reading some of your posts. I must say my understanding of structure and ratios of ingredients isn't well developed despite a lot of reading. Would you say Gisslens rules are accurate in terms of properly formulated cake layers?

I would love to know more about improper ratio results like the picture you shared about high sugar. Very interesting read.

Is two stage just another way for saying "reverse creaming" ? Truth be told because I have an excess of cake hi ratio shortening..Id like to use it and experiment with it. But realistically I wonder what happens if someone doesn't use higher ratio of liquid and sugar with hi ratio shortening...if it would result in an improper cake also..

@TheFrenchPatissier

1. “Would you say Gisslens rules are accurate in terms of properly formulated cake layers?”

If you are referring to the discussion on balancing the formula (e.g., adjusting the counter ingredient, when a structural ingredient is adjusted; for example increasing a tenderizer (sugar, fat, yolks, chocolate, etc.) requires increasing tougheners (flour, whites, milk solids, etc.), that information is correct.

Baking is a chemical reaction of all the ingredients to temperature and time. The amount of each ingredient in the batter/dough determines how the ingredients react. A great baker is able to blend the perfect balance of ingredients to trigger the desired chemical reactions for the desired crumb, color, and texture.

One thing to keep in mind about ratios (Baker’s percentages) is ingredients’ brand matters. Ratios will vary within the range depending on the brand. For example, proteins and ash contain vary significantly by brand. It's important to know the specifications of your ingredients as protein and ash content affect the amount of gluten development; water absorption; texture, color, and flavor of the end product.

Flour treatment also affects flour performance. Bleached flour absorbs less liquid; produces a finer crumb; rises higher; is weaker; bakes a lighter color, and tastes more starchy than unbleached flour.

Water content in butter varies by brand and style of butter. The performance (pliability) of butter varies significantly as each dairy uses its proprietary tempering methods in the manufacturing of butter.

Commercial equipment performs differently than home equipment.

All this is to say Gisslens’ ratios are correct for the brands of ingredients and equipment used to develop his formulas for his textbook. Expect to revise all formula regardless of the source as you will most likely be using different brands of ingredients and equipment than the source.

2. “I would love to know more about improper ratio results like the picture you shared about high sugar.”​

It's a combination of education and experience.

For a better understanding of ingredients and the role each plays in baking, I recommend Paula Figoni’s How Baking Works. this is not a cookbook, rather it is a textbook on baking ingredients and science. Each chapter includes a recipe(s) and/or experiment to illustrate the science of the ingredient.

Once you know the function of each ingredient, experiment and analyze what you bake. I still analyze everything that comes out of my oven.

3. “Is two stage just another way for saying "reverse creaming"​

Sort of... The term “reverse creaming” is not a professional/commercial term or mixing method. Rose Levy Beranbaum, a self-taught baker and cookbook writer copied the two-stage technique, but uses butter, not high-ratio shortening. Beranbaum called her made-up technique “reverse creaming.” The term makes no logical sense given there is no mechanical leavening (creaming). Rather, it's the chemical leavening that produces the rise. The lack of mechanical and absence of high ratio shortening result in a low rise with a tight dense crumb. I do not use “reverse creaming” since it produces the opposite of what is intended, that being a high rise, light airy texture with a fine crumb.

4. “But realistically I wonder what happens if someone doesn't use higher ratio of liquid and sugar with hi ratio shortening...if it would result in an improper cake also”

It might help if you understand the ingredient.

High ratio shortenings are formulated for mass production mixing methods (one or two stage); improved aeration without creaming; longer shelf life.

High-ratio shortenings contain emulsifiers. Some emulsifiers like polyglycerol esters (PGE) require a minimum amount of liquid to trigger its properties. If less liquid is used than required, there is no benefit of using a PGE shortening.

Some emulsifiers act as stabilizers. They can hold more liquid without adverse effects on the structure of the baked goods. Moisture content is about increased shelf life.

The only way to derive all the characteristics from high ratio shortening is to use the recommended ratios of other ingredients.

Hope these answers are of some help

 

[TheFrenchPatissier]

@TheFrenchPatissier

1. “Would you say Gisslens rules are accurate in terms of properly formulated cake layers?”

If you are referring to the discussion on balancing the formula (e.g., adjusting the counter ingredient, when a structural ingredient is adjusted; for example increasing a tenderizer (sugar, fat, yolks, chocolate, etc.) requires increasing tougheners (flour, whites, milk solids, etc.), that information is correct.

Baking is a chemical reaction of all the ingredients to temperature and time. The amount of each ingredient in the batter/dough determines how the ingredients react. A great baker is able to blend the perfect balance of ingredients to trigger the desired chemical reactions for the desired crumb, color, and texture.

One thing to keep in mind about ratios (Baker’s percentages) is ingredients’ brand matters. Ratios will vary within the range depending on the brand. For example, proteins and ash contain vary significantly by brand. It's important to know the specifications of your ingredients as protein and ash content affect the amount of gluten development; water absorption; texture, color, and flavor of the end product.

Flour treatment also affects flour performance. Bleached flour absorbs less liquid; produces a finer crumb; rises higher; is weaker; bakes a lighter color, and tastes more starchy than unbleached flour.

Water content in butter varies by brand and style of butter. The performance (pliability) of butter varies significantly as each dairy uses its proprietary tempering methods in the manufacturing of butter.

Commercial equipment performs differently than home equipment.

All this is to say Gisslens’ ratios are correct for the brands of ingredients and equipment used to develop his formulas for his textbook. Expect to revise all formula regardless of the source as you will most likely be using different brands of ingredients and equipment than the source.

2. “I would love to know more about improper ratio results like the picture you shared about high sugar.”​

It's a combination of education and experience.

For a better understanding of ingredients and the role each plays in baking, I recommend Paula Figoni’s How Baking Works. this is not a cookbook, rather it is a textbook on baking ingredients and science. Each chapter includes a recipe(s) and/or experiment to illustrate the science of the ingredient.

Once you know the function of each ingredient, experiment and analyze what you bake. I still analyze everything that comes out of my oven.

3. “Is two stage just another way for saying "reverse creaming"​

Sort of... The term “reverse creaming” is not a professional/commercial term or mixing method. Rose Levy Beranbaum, a self-taught baker and cookbook writer copied the two-stage technique, but uses butter, not high-ratio shortening. Beranbaum called her made-up technique “reverse creaming.” The term makes no logical sense given there is no mechanical leavening (creaming). Rather, it's the chemical leavening that produces the rise. The lack of mechanical and absence of high ratio shortening result in a low rise with a tight dense crumb. I do not use “reverse creaming” since it produces the opposite of what is intended, that being a high rise, light airy texture with a fine crumb.

4. “But realistically I wonder what happens if someone doesn't use higher ratio of liquid and sugar with hi ratio shortening...if it would result in an improper cake also”

It might help if you understand the ingredient.

High ratio shortenings are formulated for mass production mixing methods (one or two stage); improved aeration without creaming; longer shelf life.

High-ratio shortenings contain emulsifiers. Some emulsifiers like polyglycerol esters (PGE) require a minimum amount of liquid to trigger its properties. If less liquid is used than required, there is no benefit of using a PGE shortening.

Some emulsifiers act as stabilizers. They can hold more liquid without adverse effects on the structure of the baked goods. Moisture content is about increased shelf life.

The only way to derive all the characteristics from high ratio shortening is to use the recommended ratios of other ingredients.

Hope these answers are of some help

Just got to Chapter 3 of how Baking works. Did some* not all the experiments but I wish it answered the question in the experiments where it can.

I am admittedly going to do most of the experiments in Chapter 3...all about baking ingredients.

I wish I had a visual example like that picture you shared about 134% sugar. Do you have a source for that one please?

I recall from some of your posts that properly baked and formulated cakes should not have doming and brown on the outside. Correct me if I'm wrong. My pans unfortunately are the Fat Daddio 3" pans though. I have admittedly not baked anything in them worthwhile but I do not have a heat core. I only fill to halfway mark though as I heard doing more than half way isn't advisable for them.