Any experience with SAF Instant Premium/Purple Yeast?

[MixUp]

Back the last time I was into bread baking, I was very loyal to SAF Instant (red pack.) I didn't really do much in the way of sweetened breads or pastry so I never tried Gold.

It seems like since then there's a new SAF in town, premium/purple. It doesn't seem to be too widely available - it's available on Amazon like basically everything, but they're one of the very few sellers of it I can find. Not even the bread-specific stores and KAF seem to sell it. As a result I can't find much information on it beyond reviews which are always dodgy, and half of them seem to be reviewing SAF Instant red.

The marketing makes it sound like a wonder product. Highly active strain, cold water resistant, performs best in warm environments, reduced kneading, rapid fermentation, 15-30% decreased proofing times, higher rise/open crumb, better oven spring... Unless you absolutely need a slow fermentation outside refrigeration it sounds wonderful, still for <12% sugar like red, though it also recommends croissant use where red doesn't, so it seems more versatile in bridging red & gold as well. And the whole point of delayed rise is to increase fermentation but if more aggressive yeast provides similar fermentation more quickly, I don't imagine that affects flavor negatively.

So there's got to be some catch where it does something worse and isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Anyone experience this stuff as being great, or see the down side of it?

 

[retired baker]

Back the last time I was into bread baking, I was very loyal to SAF Instant (red pack.) I didn't really do much in the way of sweetened breads or pastry so I never tried Gold.

It seems like since then there's a new SAF in town, premium/purple. It doesn't seem to be too widely available - it's available on Amazon like basically everything, but they're one of the very few sellers of it I can find. Not even the bread-specific stores and KAF seem to sell it. As a result I can't find much information on it beyond reviews which are always dodgy, and half of them seem to be reviewing SAF Instant red.

The marketing makes it sound like a wonder product. Highly active strain, cold water resistant, performs best in warm environments, reduced kneading, rapid fermentation, 15-30% decreased proofing times, higher rise/open crumb, better oven spring... Unless you absolutely need a slow fermentation outside refrigeration it sounds wonderful, still for <12% sugar like red, though it also recommends croissant use where red doesn't, so it seems more versatile in bridging red & gold as well. And the whole point of delayed rise is to increase fermentation but if more aggressive yeast provides similar fermentation more quickly, I don't imagine that affects flavor negatively.

So there's got to be some catch where it does something worse and isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Anyone experience this stuff as being great, or see the down side of it?

I don't know for sure but it sounds like a modified or promoted type yeast.
I used an additive that did a lot of that, reduced proofing, rapid ferments.
It was sold as Redi-Sponge. Lots of info on google.
My preference is fresh cake yeast, they can take that dry yeast and cram it.
Does king Arthur sell cake yeast?

 

[MixUp]

I don't know for sure but it sounds like a modified or promoted type yeast.
I used an additive that did a lot of that, reduced proofing, rapid ferments.
It was sold as Redi-Sponge. Lots of info on google.
My preference is fresh cake yeast, they can take that dry yeast and cram it.
Does king Arthur sell cake yeast?

Being time strapped for bread, I might just give it a spin. Much fun as 12 to 28 hour bread was, getting it done in a few hours seems more practical now!

Ahh, cake yeast. There's no substitute, but it's just so impractical for home baking. Supermarkets sell the little cubes, and you can find some online at obscene prices, but it's rare, expensive, and doesn't last long enough to be useful. Some bakeries will sell it if you ask, but if I lived close enough to a bakery that used fresh yeast cake to buy healthy supply regularly, I'd just buy their bread and save myself the trouble

The one I know uses fresh isn't close enough, and the other shops the dry. Honestly, though, the saf red doesnt taste really dissimilar from fresh. Not sure about purple. I was always pleased with it, and the great shops that area/were around use red or gold. It's nothing like that active dry stuff that makes all bread taste like beer.

 

[retired baker]

My baguettes took 4 hrs normally, with redi sponge I could get a batch out in less than 3 hrs.
The yeast I bought in Boston was 65c lb.
Up here in northern Maine there aren't any bakeries, no fresh yeast available anywhere.
500 miles south in Boston I can get yeast from any of the places I've worked in the past.

The last place I worked was using dry yeast, red star and no matter what I tried it was impossible to get the product I wanted from it. It was always one step down in desired result, I convinced them to change to fresh.

I'll try the red star.

 

[MixUp]

My baguettes took 4 hrs normally, with redi sponge I could get a batch out in less than 3 hrs.
The yeast I bought in Boston was 65c lb.
Up here in northern Maine there aren't any bakeries, no fresh yeast available anywhere.
500 miles south in Boston I can get yeast from any of the places I've worked in the past.

The last place I worked was using dry yeast, red star and no matter what I tried it was impossible to get the product I wanted from it. It was always one step down in desired result, I convinced them to change to fresh.

I'll try the red star.

I'm not really a fan of any of the "active dry" types you have to proof in warm water. I guess it's kind of "American yeast" and works well for traditional country pan breads, but for artisan and European breads it gives to much yeast flavor. Red star in particular i feel is LeSaffre basically saying "ok, fine, we'll make an American style yeast too", except they aren't good at it.

SAF Instant (Red is for lean dough under 12% sugar, Gold is for very enriched and pastry over 12%) I think it's a reasonable replacement for the fresh cakes while being a lot more manageable at home (and even commercially if you're not doing really fine flavor details). It's not AS clean as fresh, but it's not very "yeasty" like active dry and is predictable.

I'd love to do fresh, but practical has to win.

https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/saf-red-instant-yeast-16-oz

They have gold, too. They don't have purple/premium. I might try purple.

One nice thing is unlike red star, you don't proof ut, you just mix it with your flour.

If you've only used red star for dry you might be pleasantly surprised by the instant dry types. Still isn't quite like fresh though.

 

[retired baker]

I'm not really a fan of any of the "active dry" types you have to proof in warm water. I guess it's kind of "American yeast" and works well for traditional country pan breads, but for artisan and European breads it gives to much yeast flavor. Red star in particular i feel is LeSaffre basically saying "ok, fine, we'll make an American style yeast too", except they aren't good at it.

SAF Instant (Red is for lean dough under 12% sugar, Gold is for very enriched and pastry over 12%) I think it's a reasonable replacement for the fresh cakes while being a lot more manageable at home (and even commercially if you're not doing really fine flavor details). It's not AS clean as fresh, but it's not very "yeasty" like active dry and is predictable.

I'd love to do fresh, but practical has to win.

https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/saf-red-instant-yeast-16-oz

They have gold, too. They don't have purple/premium. I might try purple.

One nice thing is unlike red star, you don't proof ut, you just mix it with your flour.

If you've only used red star for dry you might be pleasantly surprised by the instant dry types. Still isn't quite like fresh though.

I looked at king Arthur website .
At one time we used to buy all our flour from them, then the owner lost his mind and ran away to Vermont.
This was way back in the 1970's. A year later their salesman came around trying to rebuild their customer base.
Getting a commercial buyer to change suppliers once you screw them over is near impossible, so it seems they went after the retail mkt.
A newspaper article pointed out their downfall was due to their agreeing to become exclusive supplier for dunkin donuts, that handed over power to dunkin donuts , a real boneheaded move by KA.
When a wholesale customer is so big that they can dictate what you sell to other clients you no longer have control over your own business. Its basic fundamental stuff.

Anyway, maybe if I can source enough people interested in cake yeast I can order a case and ship it out during cold weather.

 

[MixUp]

That's a really interesting story! I'd never head about a turbulent history at KAF. I suppose all's well that ends well. Supposedly they're the 4th largest flour producer in the US, and run as a coop now, so that's a miraculous recovery, though #4 is slightly overstated considering conagra and general Mills out scale them probably 10:1. They really found a niche in the artisan bread industry plus retail.

The catalogue is a catalogue in the truest meaning though. Most of the prices and shipping are absurd. They're handy for supplies like enhancers though. Even with the inflated shipping it's the only place to get smaller quantities of vital wheat gluten, diastatic malt, buttermilk powder, etc. Other than redmill, but they're even more absurdly proced.

The Dunkin part is hilarious though. KAF almost went down by committing to DD in the 70s, and today I doubt DD even buys flour. I imagine it's just an mix produced to specifications at GM or Conagra. A lousy mix, at that. Back then they were good though. Must have been the Galahad......


Edit:. That could be great to get a fresh yeast pool buy going. I'd say give SAF Instant (Red for baguettes or lean brioche, or if you're doing pastry or rich brioche, Gold) a try first though. It's only a couple bucks a pound to try, lasts months in the fridge (years in the freezer) and is a heck of a lot more convenient for home use without to substantial a hit to taste, and it's easy to use, like fresh, without the temperamental shelf life (unlike red star and the proofing bath.)

Fresh is "best" but with all the other complexities of home baking, fighting with sourcing and maintaining yeast cakes for that last 5% of flavor may or may not seem worth it if you can compare.

Then again there's something to be said for routine and "muscle memory". If you're used to working with a particular product, using anything else may never work out as planned.

I've used red for pandoro and "middle class brioche" just fine, so unless you're going heavy on the enrichment or laminates the SAF Instant Red will probably be fine for everything.

 

[retired baker]

That's a really interesting story! I'd never head about a turbulent history at KAF. I suppose all's well that ends well. Supposedly they're the 4th largest flour producer in the US, and run as a coop now, so that's a miraculous recovery, though #4 is slightly overstated considering conagra and general Mills out scale them probably 10:1. They really found a niche in the artisan bread industry plus retail.

The catalogue is a catalogue in the truest meaning though. Most of the prices and shipping are absurd. They're handy for supplies like enhancers though. Even with the inflated shipping it's the only place to get smaller quantities of vital wheat gluten, diastatic malt, buttermilk powder, etc. Other than redmill, but they're even more absurdly proced.

The Dunkin part is hilarious though. KAF almost went down by committing to DD in the 70s, and today I doubt DD even buys flour. I imagine it's just an mix produced to specifications at GM or Conagra. A lousy mix, at that. Back then they were good though. Must have been the Galahad......


Edit:. That could be great to get a fresh yeast pool buy going. I'd say give SAF Instant (Red for baguettes or lean brioche, or if you're doing pastry or rich brioche, Gold) a try first though. It's only a couple bucks a pound to try, lasts months in the fridge (years in the freezer) and is a heck of a lot more convenient for home use without to substantial a hit to taste, and it's easy to use, like fresh, without the temperamental shelf life (unlike red star and the proofing bath.)

Fresh is "best" but with all the other complexities of home baking, fighting with sourcing and maintaining yeast cakes for that last 5% of flavor may or may not seem worth it if you can compare.

Then again there's something to be said for routine and "muscle memory". If you're used to working with a particular product, using anything else may never work out as planned.

I've used red for pandoro and "middle class brioche" just fine, so unless you're going heavy on the enrichment or laminates the SAF Instant Red will probably be fine for everything.

Dunkies wanted mostly exclusive donut mix, it wasn't something they could go sell to other bakeries, it had dunkie labeling, just a real bonehead move by the son of the old man who had died.
Considering I was just a small bakery but bought 1000lb of hi gluten flour a week.
They really killed their volume sales by going after the retail mkt, home bakers don't use hardly anything.General mills and conagra is who I ended up getting most of my product from, GM is very resposive if you call up to chat about technical aspects.

You can find a lot of products if you have a tax ID number, I've been getting flavor pastes that aren't availble to the public via ups, just invent a number, they only need it for their records, no one gives a hoot.
These guys have a lot of commercial ingredients not available retail.
https://stovercompany.com/categories.html

If I could get reliable yeast I'd start supplying local farmstands, the Amish have one here , they buy fruit turnovers that are near inedible from a home baker. I'm dying of boredom in retirement, just trying to save my life here.

Take a look at the croissant pic in my video, you can't get that ultra flaky result with dry yeast.
I'd rather make a different product than have to look at croissant made with dry yeast, maybe danish instead.

 

[MixUp]

Dunkies wanted mostly exclusive donut mix, it wasn't something they could go sell to other bakeries, it had dunkie labeling, just a real bonehead move by the son of the old man who had died.
Considering I was just a small bakery but bought 1000lb of hi gluten flour a week.
They really killed their volume sales by going after the retail mkt, home bakers don't use hardly anything.General mills and conagra is who I ended up getting most of my product from, GM is very resposive if you call up to chat about technical aspects.

You can find a lot of products if you have a tax ID number, I've been getting flavor pastes that aren't availble to the public via ups, just invent a number, they only need it for their records, no one gives a hoot.
These guys have a lot of commercial ingredients not available retail.
https://stovercompany.com/categories.html

If I could get reliable yeast I'd start supplying local farmstands, the Amish have one here , they buy fruit turnovers that are near inedible from a home baker. I'm dying of boredom in retirement, just trying to save my life here.

Take a look at the croissant pic in my video, you can't get that ultra flaky result with dry yeast.
I'd rather make a different product than have to look at croissant made with dry yeast, maybe danish instead.

I imagine it was inevitable anyway...KAF could have never competed with the mega conglomerates for wholesale volume and pricing going into the 90s and later.... They'd have been cut out of that market anyway. What they lack in volume they make up in margin with retail. $1/lb or more for flour. More if shipped. Meanwhile the galahad is $20/50lb or less... Same product, different sales channel. Between that and their wholesale going more towards the artisan/boutique trade at higher margin than GMs cutthroat pricing, they're probably doing much better than trying to compete head on agaist food farming/processing/additive/lab/lobby/frozen/prepared conglomerates!

That's really interesting about suppliers and tax ids. I'm not sure I'm confident enough to tempt fate with that, yet you've piqued my interest significantly. Maybe at some point I'll have to give that a try. Don't residential delivery raise red flags? I wonder if BBGA offers access to any of that "on the level"? I'll have to drop them a line..... Almost $100 a year has to get me something more than networking....

That's interesting about croissant, I haven't heard about the yeast affecting flakiness in pastry. I avoid doing laminated dough only because i don't have the right setup here to keep temps right, not enough rolling space. Pasta is about a l laminate a dough i do these days.

You make me curious about yeast again though. I wonder what saf instant gold croissant examples i could find.

 

[retired baker]

I imagine it was inevitable anyway...KAF could have never competed with the mega conglomerates for wholesale volume and pricing going into the 90s and later.... They'd have been cut out of that market anyway. What they lack in volume they make up in margin with retail. $1/lb or more for flour. More if shipped. Meanwhile the galahad is $20/50lb or less... Same product, different sales channel. Between that and their wholesale going more towards the artisan/boutique trade at higher margin than GMs cutthroat pricing, they're probably doing much better than trying to compete head on agaist food farming/processing/additive/lab/lobby/frozen/prepared conglomerates!

That's really interesting about suppliers and tax ids. I'm not sure I'm confident enough to tempt fate with that, yet you've piqued my interest significantly. Maybe at some point I'll have to give that a try. Don't residential delivery raise red flags? I wonder if BBGA offers access to any of that "on the level"? I'll have to drop them a line..... Almost $100 a year has to get me something more than networking....

That's interesting about croissant, I haven't heard about the yeast affecting flakiness in pastry. I avoid doing laminated dough only because i don't have the right setup here to keep temps right, not enough rolling space. Pasta is about a l laminate a dough i do these days.

You make me curious about yeast again though. I wonder what saf instant gold croissant examples i could find.

You can ship to Mixup bakery, give a home address, they don't care, its not as if anyone would come looking.
We did it for 2 years before opening a bakery in Boston. It helps if you don't list an apt number.
Unit 4 , not apt 4. Just use common sense.

You can get a fed ID number FREE, just apply. Its not difficult.
https://irs-taxid-numbers.com/?gcli...NYCbBAPIXC--SfdK0IYoXg8fthvBsKwBoC3qMQAvD_BwE

Although once you get the number you're on the radar, I prefer to run below surface unless planning to go retail.
tax ID numbers are also nine digits long as SS but formatted differently. they are read as XX-XXXXXXX
The first digit is always 9.

Legally you'd have to submit a business tax return every yr, thats why I'd rather slip under the radar.
Business tax returns can be expensive. My accountant did my personal returns free every year because the business paperwork was expensive.

Most of the reticence to sell wholesale to public from a suppliers concern is the products aren't legally labeled for retail. I doubt the BBGA knows much about business, you'd be better off by $100 just talking shop with any business owner. Legally, they could give a hoot as long as you provide them cover by submitting a number.

 

[retired baker]

I knew an IRS worker in Boston, she asked how much I was skimming, she said I wasn't taking enough, the IRS doesn't care unless you go over 15% of gross sales.
people get in trouble because they're either greedy or very stupid.

Theres a story about a pizza guy who claimed to only sell 100 pizzas a week , but his invoices showed he was buying 400 pizza boxes a week. Not the brightest bulb on the tree.
I always got a chuckle when I picked up supplies at restaurant depot, everyone paid with business debit cards or business check, except the pizza guys, they pull out a wad of green cash, leaves no tracks.

 

[retired baker]

I'll try to post a pic of croissant made with cake yeast, this can't be done with dry yeast, no chance.
The layer separation is unmatched , dry yeast lacks the explosiveness in the oven.
Not my croissants but I can get the same result, margarine also helps a lot, butter doesn't flake hardly.

 

[MixUp]

You can ship to Mixup bakery, give a home address, they don't care, its not as if anyone would come looking.
We did it for 2 years before opening a bakery in Boston. It helps if you don't list an apt number.
Unit 4 , not apt 4. Just use common sense.

You can get a fed ID number FREE, just apply. Its not difficult.
https://irs-taxid-numbers.com/?gcli...NYCbBAPIXC--SfdK0IYoXg8fthvBsKwBoC3qMQAvD_BwE

Although once you get the number you're on the radar, I prefer to run below surface unless planning to go retail.
tax ID numbers are also nine digits long as SS but formatted differently. they are read as XX-XXXXXXX
The first digit is always 9.

Legally you'd have to submit a business tax return every yr, thats why I'd rather slip under the radar.
Business tax returns can be expensive. My accountant did my personal returns free every year because the business paperwork was expensive.

Most of the reticence to sell wholesale to public from a suppliers concern is the products aren't legally labeled for retail. I doubt the BBGA knows much about business, you'd be better off by $100 just talking shop with any business owner. Legally, they could give a hoot as long as you provide them cover by submitting a number.

Baking Forums - come for the baking advice, stay for the gray market scheming!

That's all very interesting and educational! I never really looked into getting a personal fed ID for such purposes. Though, like you, I'd much rather keep below the surface. I actually checked out Stover, and I didn't actually see any requirements for a business account. Maybe I'd have to make it further through the checkout to get that far, but maybe I'm not looking at the right (wrong?) products.

Haha, that's hilarious about the IRS worker. I've known of standardized skimming, but to hear that it's actively encouraged is just amazing. Yeah, I know a pizza guy....sounds about right. They're the smart ones, if you ask me... Tough business though. The competition is extreme. It's like selling baguettes in Paris.

Even without the invoices for 400 boxes, claiming 100 pizzas a week would raise every red flag in the book. You couldn't run the oven on that drawer.

Speaking of ovens, I've been using my small countertop convection toaster oven for most things. It's nice, convenient, works. I went to fire up the Cadco yesterday and work on cleaning it up and discovered the cord somehow got damaged (at least I discovered this before plugging it in... The cord isn't severed but the insulation on both the outer and inner jackets got abraded to the copper.) Ugh! Thankfully the cords are replaceable. Unfortunately many parts for that oven are discontinued now, and what parts there are, carry a very "made in Italy" kind of pricing.....$80 for a flipping door gasket for a 1/2 sheet oven..... Fan motors are discontinued. I hate buying top quality things so I can repair them, and they redesign them and stop making parts the year after I buy them. Always happens. I swear next time I'm buying the cheap Chinese one. Or at least the Waring which is the next best thing....

I pulled the Electrolux DLX out of mothballs too. Serious chrome pitting....can't do much about that. I'll just call it "character."

Getting closer to doing bread again! Just have to pick a yeast. And wait for EH to take their time shipping my pans/stones.

That's very interesting on several counts about yeast and margarine in croissants. I've always thought of pastry as butter-butter-butter-butter. All the pastry guys I've known have been butter-only (the one shop dabbled with margarine, then went back to butter.) There's one really good French shop around, fantastic croissant (thankfully I don't have to make my own). I can tell he uses fresh yeast, but I'd have thought all butter. True pastry is out of reach with my home setup, so for DIY I have to settle for very enriched breads. Might make an Italian anise type Easter braid this year. Finding "the right" recipe will be tricky though.

 

[retired baker]

Baking Forums - come for the baking advice, stay for the gray market scheming!

That's all very interesting and educational! I never really looked into getting a personal fed ID for such purposes. Though, like you, I'd much rather keep below the surface. I actually checked out Stover, and I didn't actually see any requirements for a business account. Maybe I'd have to make it further through the checkout to get that far, but maybe I'm not looking at the right (wrong?) products.

Haha, that's hilarious about the IRS worker. I've known of standardized skimming, but to hear that it's actively encouraged is just amazing. Yeah, I know a pizza guy....sounds about right. They're the smart ones, if you ask me... Tough business though. The competition is extreme. It's like selling baguettes in Paris.

Even without the invoices for 400 boxes, claiming 100 pizzas a week would raise every red flag in the book. You couldn't run the oven on that drawer.

Speaking of ovens, I've been using my small countertop convection toaster oven for most things. It's nice, convenient, works. I went to fire up the Cadco yesterday and work on cleaning it up and discovered the cord somehow got damaged (at least I discovered this before plugging it in... The cord isn't severed but the insulation on both the outer and inner jackets got abraded to the copper.) Ugh! Thankfully the cords are replaceable. Unfortunately many parts for that oven are discontinued now, and what parts there are, carry a very "made in Italy" kind of pricing.....$80 for a flipping door gasket for a 1/2 sheet oven..... Fan motors are discontinued. I hate buying top quality things so I can repair them, and they redesign them and stop making parts the year after I buy them. Always happens. I swear next time I'm buying the cheap Chinese one. Or at least the Waring which is the next best thing....

I pulled the Electrolux DLX out of mothballs too. Serious chrome pitting....can't do much about that. I'll just call it "character."

Getting closer to doing bread again! Just have to pick a yeast. And wait for EH to take their time shipping my pans/stones.

That's very interesting on several counts about yeast and margarine in croissants. I've always thought of pastry as butter-butter-butter-butter. All the pastry guys I've known have been butter-only (the one shop dabbled with margarine, then went back to butter.) There's one really good French shop around, fantastic croissant (thankfully I don't have to make my own). I can tell he uses fresh yeast, but I'd have thought all butter. True pastry is out of reach with my home setup, so for DIY I have to settle for very enriched breads. Might make an Italian anise type Easter braid this year. Finding "the right" recipe will be tricky though.

As a group, the Italian bakers are very clever at finding profit, pizza guys are usually very sharp.

IRS field inspectors are very shrewd too, they know whats up.
We paid the IRS $75 to have a field agent come in and explain which products are taxable (coffee) and which are non taxed.(bakery item)
It was difficult getting him to commit to which items belonged in which category.
Cup of coffee is taxable.
Cup of coffee with 1 croiss is classed as a meal, taxable.
6 croissant in a box is bakery sale, non taxable.
So I asked, what if I buy a cup of coffee and 5 croissant, is it taxable?
He wouldn't commit one way or the other.
They really aren't interested in the small infraction.

 

[retired baker]

Baking Forums - come for the baking advice, stay for the gray market scheming!

That's very interesting on several counts about yeast and margarine in croissants. I've always thought of pastry as butter-butter-butter-butter. All the pastry guys I've known have been butter-only (the one shop dabbled with margarine, then went back to butter.) There's one really good French shop around, fantastic croissant (thankfully I don't have to make my own). I can tell he uses fresh yeast, but I'd have thought all butter. True pastry is out of reach with my home setup, so for DIY I have to settle for very enriched breads. Might make an Italian anise type Easter braid this year. Finding "the right" recipe will be tricky though.

Commercial margarine isn't the sloppy yellow stuff , its hard and has to be pounded before rolling.
Its also unsalted. Contains less water than the average butter.
Gives a cleaner taste and far better flake, mouthfeel is very important.
They sell a butter blend ,I tried it, nope...too sloppy.
Last time I looked uns marg was $18 a 30lb case.
Uns butter (cabots) was over $100 a case.
6 cases of butter a week is a paycheck down the drain.
My typical slab of dough used 13lb flour, I'd roll in 4 lbs marg and 2 lbs butter for flavor.\
That way I got the flake and flavor.

I've heard people say "I only use butter in my kitchen" , yeh sure, so whats in the deep fryer? ghee?

Some things just don't work with marg, brioche, puff dough, shortbread, buttercream obviously.

 

[MixUp]

I "discovered" a new yeast. It's one I'd heard of at least in passing and in various books before, but never actually saw, because nobody actually sold it. I finally found a place that sells it, so I'm now debating between the SAF Purple/Premium and Fermipan "2-in-1" Super. From what I can tell the Fermipan Super is also a faster fermenting yeast than normal yeast, but not as obviously accelerated as Purple. I really want the acceleration of Purple. However, the Fermipan is a 2-in-1 dough conditioner and yeast which sounds intriguing, and I recall some people used to swear by the stuff back in the day (Reinhart maybe?) It's impossible to tell from LeSaffre's descriptions what yeast is really for what, and I'm not unconvinced some of them aren't just different repackaging of the same thing. Seems it's stable in less sugar than the others (10% vs 12%), is also cold tolerant, doesn't need as warm a proofing environment. Doesn't rise as fast, but rises faster than Red/Gold. The conditioner is interesting. The Purple seems recommended for bread, pizza, crackers, croissant, etc. The Fermipan seems to emphasize whole wheat, artisan, etc. I do use a lot of whole wheat (but fresh milled, and much finer than commercially milled WW. Even with bran it can get down to near-pastry flour consistency. Since I used to use additives like vital wheat gluten and diastatic malt, the Fermipan could simplify the ingredients I have to maintain. Very curious. I hate to have two open yeasts, but this might become a "use both" situation.

Speaking of fresh milled wheat, sometimes conventional wisdom doesn't apply. Last weekend I did another round of pasta. Instead of 100% AP (KAF Unbleached) I did 50/50 fresh milled WW semolina, & KAF AP. Using the same, or slightly less hydration, the dough was slightly more hydrated than with all AP (unfortunately). The fresh WW semolina appeared to require less liquid than the bagged AP contrary to normal thinking. I assume the high oil concentration in the fresh flour was still wet enough to not need much liquid absorption.

This is still one thing that taxes the KA mixers severely. Can't do do more than about 2.8lb pasta at a time in the Pro 600. Even that much, the hook starts running in starts and stops, bogging down then flinging forward, and you still have to finish the knead by hand. I think next time I'm going to try it in the Electrolux. I bet I could do 5.5lb or so at a time in there, or more, without it bogging down. It's not nearly as versatile as a KA, but when it comes to dense doughs, it really does have it's purpose....

Oh, and I discovered a gem in the Cadco 013 sell sheet (the newer model that replaced my older model oven.):

Medium Duty: not for continuous operating temperature of 475-500F.
We recommend Cadco XAF/XAFT series heavy duty ovens for this range of operation.
​

That disclaimer didn't exist on the OV350 when I bought mine, but I'm betting it applies, half the internals are the same (I'm starting to think a lot of "discontinued" parts still exist under new part numbers for the newer machines. You can't tell me the gaskets are actually different. Who knows about motors and elements.) That might explain the whole "trips the safety if I leave it at 475 or more for 15 minutes" when the safety is really a thermal cutoff, but might also trip for electric (it's only a 12A oven.) I'm betting it's either "supposed" to trip at 475, or they put this disclaimer in because they discovered it does trip at 475 due to some component or another. So it's a 450F oven. For $1k.

That's an interesting state level code about taxable and non-taxable. Here, the box of croissants would be taxable. Anything but the bag of flour is taxable. Raw ingredients only are tax free. Tax code is such a trainwreck...

That's interesting about the commercial margarine. I've honestly never actually seen the stuff! The one shop was legitimately all butter. They tried margarine, apparently, at one time, but didn't like it. They tried to switch to unsalted butter at one point, and customers complained it wasn't as good, so they went back to salted against their will. They solved the fryer conundrum by removing the fryers and making that area another poofer area. They couldn't stand using them. They didn't do croissant though, mostly danish and other puff pastry, and of course the coffee cakes buns, tarts, pies, cookies, etc. Their puff wasn't crisp and flakey like your pictures. It did have a delicate crunch on day 1, but the butter quickly overtook it as it sat and made it soggy by day 2 (never stale/dry.) it was a softer, more delicate pastry, though the layers were "denser" and more cake-like. That's the puff pastry I'm most used to though. Probably more traditional than "modern" margarine pastry. The French shop almost certainly is doing your margarine method. And I admit, his croissant and napoleons can't be beat (he's originally from Paris, had a shop there, went to school there....the real real deal all the way around, in every way...and a true French chef in every sense of the word...) Still, for my own use I'm partial to the all-butter methods. Maybe if I got into pastry I'd change due to price, though. Something about 19th century food science products is off putting to me. I avoid shortening where possible as well. Something about modified vegetable oils makes me cringe.

I don't mind some cheats though. I have on occasion used powdered dehydrated eggs. And the "buttercream" base mix.

 

[retired baker]

I "discovered" a new yeast. It's one I'd heard of at least in passing and in various books before, but never actually saw, because nobody actually sold it. I finally found a place that sells it, so I'm now debating between the SAF Purple/Premium and Fermipan "2-in-1" Super. From what I can tell the Fermipan Super is also a faster fermenting yeast than normal yeast, but not as obviously accelerated as Purple. I really want the acceleration of Purple. However, the Fermipan is a 2-in-1 dough conditioner and yeast which sounds intriguing, and I recall some people used to swear by the stuff back in the day (Reinhart maybe?) It's impossible to tell from LeSaffre's descriptions what yeast is really for what, and I'm not unconvinced some of them aren't just different repackaging of the same thing. Seems it's stable in less sugar than the others (10% vs 12%), is also cold tolerant, doesn't need as warm a proofing environment. Doesn't rise as fast, but rises faster than Red/Gold. The conditioner is interesting. The Purple seems recommended for bread, pizza, crackers, croissant, etc. The Fermipan seems to emphasize whole wheat, artisan, etc. I do use a lot of whole wheat (but fresh milled, and much finer than commercially milled WW. Even with bran it can get down to near-pastry flour consistency. Since I used to use additives like vital wheat gluten and diastatic malt, the Fermipan could simplify the ingredients I have to maintain. Very curious. I hate to have two open yeasts, but this might become a "use both" situation.

Speaking of fresh milled wheat, sometimes conventional wisdom doesn't apply. Last weekend I did another round of pasta. Instead of 100% AP (KAF Unbleached) I did 50/50 fresh milled WW semolina, & KAF AP. Using the same, or slightly less hydration, the dough was slightly more hydrated than with all AP (unfortunately). The fresh WW semolina appeared to require less liquid than the bagged AP contrary to normal thinking. I assume the high oil concentration in the fresh flour was still wet enough to not need much liquid absorption.

This is still one thing that taxes the KA mixers severely. Can't do do more than about 2.8lb pasta at a time in the Pro 600. Even that much, the hook starts running in starts and stops, bogging down then flinging forward, and you still have to finish the knead by hand. I think next time I'm going to try it in the Electrolux. I bet I could do 5.5lb or so at a time in there, or more, without it bogging down. It's not nearly as versatile as a KA, but when it comes to dense doughs, it really does have it's purpose....

Oh, and I discovered a gem in the Cadco 013 sell sheet (the newer model that replaced my older model oven.):

Medium Duty: not for continuous operating temperature of 475-500F.
We recommend Cadco XAF/XAFT series heavy duty ovens for this range of operation.
​

That disclaimer didn't exist on the OV350 when I bought mine, but I'm betting it applies, half the internals are the same (I'm starting to think a lot of "discontinued" parts still exist under new part numbers for the newer machines. You can't tell me the gaskets are actually different. Who knows about motors and elements.) That might explain the whole "trips the safety if I leave it at 475 or more for 15 minutes" when the safety is really a thermal cutoff, but might also trip for electric (it's only a 12A oven.) I'm betting it's either "supposed" to trip at 475, or they put this disclaimer in because they discovered it does trip at 475 due to some component or another. So it's a 450F oven. For $1k.

That's an interesting state level code about taxable and non-taxable. Here, the box of croissants would be taxable. Anything but the bag of flour is taxable. Raw ingredients only are tax free. Tax code is such a trainwreck...

That's interesting about the commercial margarine. I've honestly never actually seen the stuff! The one shop was legitimately all butter. They tried margarine, apparently, at one time, but didn't like it. They tried to switch to unsalted butter at one point, and customers complained it wasn't as good, so they went back to salted against their will. They solved the fryer conundrum by removing the fryers and making that area another poofer area. They couldn't stand using them. They didn't do croissant though, mostly danish and other puff pastry, and of course the coffee cakes buns, tarts, pies, cookies, etc. Their puff wasn't crisp and flakey like your pictures. It did have a delicate crunch on day 1, but the butter quickly overtook it as it sat and made it soggy by day 2 (never stale/dry.) it was a softer, more delicate pastry, though the layers were "denser" and more cake-like. That's the puff pastry I'm most used to though. Probably more traditional than "modern" margarine pastry. The French shop almost certainly is doing your margarine method. And I admit, his croissant and napoleons can't be beat (he's originally from Paris, had a shop there, went to school there....the real real deal all the way around, in every way...and a true French chef in every sense of the word...) Still, for my own use I'm partial to the all-butter methods. Maybe if I got into pastry I'd change due to price, though. Something about 19th century food science products is off putting to me. I avoid shortening where possible as well. Something about modified vegetable oils makes me cringe.

I don't mind some cheats though. I have on occasion used powdered dehydrated eggs. And the "buttercream" base mix.

I had a 120v welder that tripped the breaker often, I upgrded to a 240v welder and its never tripped breakers.
That might be part of your problem. , a 120v and 240v ovens both running the same temp , the 120v breaker will get hotter. 120v breaker is usually rated 15 amp, 240 breakers are usually 60 amp.
The safety trip is to give thermal protection to the house wiring.
The 240v version wouldn't need it as everything from breaker to wall socket is much beefier.

Theres a margarine formulated just for danish dough, $1 a lb. 50lb blocks.
But it tastes like yellow crisco, it probably is.

 

[retired baker]

I "discovered" a new yeast. It's one I'd heard of at least in passing and in various books before, but never actually saw, because nobody actually sold it. I finally found a place that sells it, so I'm now debating between the SAF Purple/Premium and Fermipan "2-in-1" Super. From what I can tell the Fermipan Super is also a faster fermenting yeast than normal yeast, but not as obviously accelerated as Purple. I really want the acceleration of Purple. However, the Fermipan is a 2-in-1 dough conditioner and yeast which sounds intriguing, and I recall some people used to swear by the stuff back in the day (Reinhart maybe?) It's impossible to tell from LeSaffre's descriptions what yeast is really for what, and I'm not unconvinced some of them aren't just different repackaging of the same thing. Seems it's stable in less sugar than the others (10% vs 12%), is also cold tolerant, doesn't need as warm a proofing environment. Doesn't rise as fast, but rises faster than Red/Gold. The conditioner is interesting. The Purple seems recommended for bread, pizza, crackers, croissant, etc. The Fermipan seems to emphasize whole wheat, artisan, etc. I do use a lot of whole wheat (but fresh milled, and much finer than commercially milled WW. Even with bran it can get down to near-pastry flour consistency. Since I used to use additives like vital wheat gluten and diastatic malt, the Fermipan could simplify the ingredients I have to maintain. Very curious. I hate to have two open yeasts, but this might become a "use both" situation.

Speaking of fresh milled wheat, sometimes conventional wisdom doesn't apply. Last weekend I did another round of pasta. Instead of 100% AP (KAF Unbleached) I did 50/50 fresh milled WW semolina, & KAF AP. Using the same, or slightly less hydration, the dough was slightly more hydrated than with all AP (unfortunately). The fresh WW semolina appeared to require less liquid than the bagged AP contrary to normal thinking. I assume the high oil concentration in the fresh flour was still wet enough to not need much liquid absorption.

This is still one thing that taxes the KA mixers severely. Can't do do more than about 2.8lb pasta at a time in the Pro 600. Even that much, the hook starts running in starts and stops, bogging down then flinging forward, and you still have to finish the knead by hand. I think next time I'm going to try it in the Electrolux. I bet I could do 5.5lb or so at a time in there, or more, without it bogging down. It's not nearly as versatile as a KA, but when it comes to dense doughs, it really does have it's purpose....

Oh, and I discovered a gem in the Cadco 013 sell sheet (the newer model that replaced my older model oven.):

Medium Duty: not for continuous operating temperature of 475-500F.
We recommend Cadco XAF/XAFT series heavy duty ovens for this range of operation.
​

That disclaimer didn't exist on the OV350 when I bought mine, but I'm betting it applies, half the internals are the same (I'm starting to think a lot of "discontinued" parts still exist under new part numbers for the newer machines. You can't tell me the gaskets are actually different. Who knows about motors and elements.) That might explain the whole "trips the safety if I leave it at 475 or more for 15 minutes" when the safety is really a thermal cutoff, but might also trip for electric (it's only a 12A oven.) I'm betting it's either "supposed" to trip at 475, or they put this disclaimer in because they discovered it does trip at 475 due to some component or another. So it's a 450F oven. For $1k.

That's an interesting state level code about taxable and non-taxable. Here, the box of croissants would be taxable. Anything but the bag of flour is taxable. Raw ingredients only are tax free. Tax code is such a trainwreck...

That's interesting about the commercial margarine. I've honestly never actually seen the stuff! The one shop was legitimately all butter. They tried margarine, apparently, at one time, but didn't like it. They tried to switch to unsalted butter at one point, and customers complained it wasn't as good, so they went back to salted against their will. They solved the fryer conundrum by removing the fryers and making that area another poofer area. They couldn't stand using them. They didn't do croissant though, mostly danish and other puff pastry, and of course the coffee cakes buns, tarts, pies, cookies, etc. Their puff wasn't crisp and flakey like your pictures. It did have a delicate crunch on day 1, but the butter quickly overtook it as it sat and made it soggy by day 2 (never stale/dry.) it was a softer, more delicate pastry, though the layers were "denser" and more cake-like. That's the puff pastry I'm most used to though. Probably more traditional than "modern" margarine pastry. The French shop almost certainly is doing your margarine method. And I admit, his croissant and napoleons can't be beat (he's originally from Paris, had a shop there, went to school there....the real real deal all the way around, in every way...and a true French chef in every sense of the word...) Still, for my own use I'm partial to the all-butter methods. Maybe if I got into pastry I'd change due to price, though. Something about 19th century food science products is off putting to me. I avoid shortening where possible as well. Something about modified vegetable oils makes me cringe.

I don't mind some cheats though. I have on occasion used powdered dehydrated eggs. And the "buttercream" base mix.

The newer margarines are not as good , the older formulation was harder, almost like butter when chilled, then the gvmnt decided to save us from transfats , I notice the new stuff isn't as good. Its softer.

I think all those yeasts are the same but the formulation meant to be used in lean dough includes whey or some type of food for the yeast.... often its dairy based.
I homebrew probiotic ginger ale, the champagne yeast is expensive, as is beer yeast, I just use bread yeast and get same results, explosive actually, if not chilled the bottles blow .

The guy I trained with had every trick in the book, his croissant were all marg, not a sniff of butter.
He knew how to make money.
I started to use butter later on.
People on yelp still ask about his croissant 30 yrs later. "How did he do it, his were the best" etc.

He made buttercream by putting commercial bought fondant in the mixer with a lb of uns marg, creamed it and added a few lbs of uns butter, it tasted good and was very quick to make. Because his buttercream contained no eggs it didn't need refrigerating, that made working with it very fast.

Chocolate mousse was just heavy cream, cocoa powder, some sugar and choc syrup, whip stiff and call it a day.
I found that to be too fatty so he showed me how to make the real thing.
The funny thing is you can't find the recipe for real mousse anywhere.
Its just eggs, choc and cream.
All the recipes call for coffee or butter or extra sugar, those are emulsifiers, only needed because they don't know how to get the yolks emulsified into the melted choc without the choc seizing up.

 

[MixUp]

I had a 120v welder that tripped the breaker often, I upgrded to a 240v welder and its never tripped breakers.
That might be part of your problem. , a 120v and 240v ovens both running the same temp , the 120v breaker will get hotter. 120v breaker is usually rated 15 amp, 240 breakers are usually 60 amp.
The safety trip is to give thermal protection to the house wiring.
The 240v version wouldn't need it as everything from breaker to wall socket is much beefier.

Theres a margarine formulated just for danish dough, $1 a lb. 50lb blocks.
But it tastes like yellow crisco, it probably is.
View attachment 2768

It seems to me there's some situation they're aware of that it doesn't, internally, sustain high temps and now have a loose CYA disclaimer. The safety is first and foremost a thermal trip. And it's only a 12A oven, so not the highest draw appliance I own, and an oven isn't continuous draw like other appliances, so it's a lower wire/breaker heating risk than, say, a burner hob, space heater, hair dryer (!) etc that is continuous draw at max output. Nah, this is something inside the oven (either a touchy trip, or an underbuilt component that starts drawing too much current when heated to a certain point), that they seem aware of. It probably applies to a lot of similar sized ovens, but I do find it humorous that the "defect" I chose to live with 12+ years ago is now apparently in the sell sheet as a "specification." A European mini oven that goes up to 500 with a disclaimer that you shouldn't actually use it above 450 that costs 25% more than even exotic household ovens is just funny.

Rofco makes a pure, small bread oven for around the same price point. That's so tempting, but I need the oven for more than only hearth breads and nothing else.

Ew. Soy margarine. It's probably all soy these days. I wonder what the difference is between soy margarine and Crisco. Crisco is mostly hydrogenated, modified palm oil I think. I swear "margarine" is just "soy based shortening" given that.

I still love how Crisco has big splashes on the cans "0% Trans-fat!". It's a can of trans-fat. That's what shortening is. It's a 100% trans-fat. It's like having a bag of raw in-shell walnuts that says "contains no nuts!" They manipulated the food labeling laws (that they probably paid for) that says you can round to 0 for a given serving size if it's below 1% daily recommendation. So they just chopped the serving size down to 1/8tsp or something ridiculous like that so that the total product was less than 1% your daily recommendation, rounded to 0, and voila, your can of 100% trans-fat contains 0% trans-fat!

And then they want you to have the exact nutrition facts on your small shop made hamantash. "Contains 0% sugar, 0% gluten, 0% fat (per .15mg serving)" There's my nutrition facts.

Speaking of labeling, it's nice of LeSaffre to not actually list what constitutes "dough conditioner" in the Fermipan.

 

[retired baker]

Dough conditioners are mostly similar I think, "a proprietary blend of sweet whey, corn flour, monocalcium phosphate, potassium bromate, and L-cysteine hydrochloride. "

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ag...H2S3iRuhKERp33cyJnEfwxwwUmhaBRvxoCv0QQAvD_BwE